D&D 5E 5E Can't Fail If It Focuses

[ren1999]

Gridless combat as primary approach.

A really nice summary of what you want out of the game. I don't know about gridless though. Would you just guess-timate the distance of 5 feet? I don't see how we can go with gridless when range is such an important factor for ranged combat.

When we were playing 1st edition toy store in the mall bought blue box edition, we didn't have any grid maps. So we used chess boards and graph paper!

 

[ren1999]

-Does not try and mimic a computer role playing game.

We differ on this one. I'm pushing hard for a modernized Gold Box experience. But not too childish or simple.

"-A system not dumbed down to make it "simpler" for younger people and admit that younger people are smarter then they think."

Shouldn't the core rules be as simple to follow as possible where advanced guides get into the gritty crunchy detail? I was following 4E during the play-testing so I was prepared for that. I had a really difficult week learning Pathfinder just recently.

"-Listen to their fans this time around and actually input some of their ideas instead of writing them off as they are famous for over the last 12 years now. "

I'm still worried about that. I'm from Seattle. I know two people at WOTC. I know players and fans who are friends of those people as well who run a weekly game. I really hope they are still listening to me and you.

"-STOP trying to release so MANY books... make us want more and accept that they will not come out every two months (hard covers) but maybe 2-3 (maybe a chance of 4 times a year) STOP the rules glut!"

That is why I'm so insistent on removing duplicate feats and powers.

"-Playtest, playtest, playtest and actually LISTEN to the fans and make changes according to the feedback."

It should have been standard operating procedure from day 1.

"-Do not try and redo 4E and expect the fractured fans that WotC lost when 4E came out."

4E and Pathfinder are very similar in many ways. There are some things that just can't be forgiven. Roll a 1d20 and be completely cured on a 10 or higher? No. Have millions of feats and spells full of obvious editing errors and rule conflicts? No. Start a 1st level player in a game with only 5 hit points?! What are they trying to do to the GM and the players?

My Dungeons & Dragons Hybrid Game for Firefox and Chrome kira3696.tripod.com/CombatTracker.rar

 

[El Mahdi]

And this is why 5e is doomed. It will fail if it sucks - which it will, if it caters to the 3.5 holdouts who rejected 4e. And, it will fail if it doesn't appeal to those same people.

It is only "doomed" to those that can't see beyond their own biases and preferences. It's only "doomed" if pessimism is the dominant attitude held by fans of D&D.

5E will fail if it caters to any group, be it 3E/3.5E holdouts, Pathfinder converts, Old School grognards...and yes, even 4E Fans.

It will fail for each of those groups individually if it also doesn't appeal to each of those groups individually.

5E will not be the game for everybody, but I think it will end up being the game for most of us...from all editions and preferences and corners of our fanbase.

I prefer Optimism until shown that it isn't for me. Give it a chance. Don't condemn it before even seeing it.

Pessimism serves nothing constructive. Instead, try being an active part of making it a game that works for both you and everybody else. If everybody did that, then it can't fail.

 

[Nikmal]

It is only "doomed" to those that can't see beyond their own biases and preferences. It's only "doomed" if pessimism is the dominant attitude held by fans of D&D.

5E will fail if it caters to any group, be it 3E/3.5E holdouts, Pathfinder converts, Old School grognards...and yes, even 4E Fans.

It will fail for each of those groups individually if it also doesn't appeal to each of those groups individually.

5E will not be the game for everybody, but I think it will end up being the game for most of us...from all editions and preferences and corners of our fanbase.

I prefer Optimism until shown that it isn't for me. Give it a chance. Don't condemn it before even seeing it.

Pessimism serves nothing constructive. Instead, try being an active part of making it a game that works for both you and everybody else. If everybody did that,AND WotC LISTENS this time around then it MIGHT not fail.

Boldened statements mine.

The thing is if WotC tries to appeal to all the gaming groups and styles I do not think that this edition will be good. It is the case of carrying to many eggs in one basket, drop the basket and you loose everything. Same thing here, you try and appeal to everyone and no one group will like it all that much.

Pessimism does serve to be constructive WHEN the people that are pessmistic are offering constructive feedback and WotC actually listens to said feedback too. It has been my experience in 38 years of gaming with 13 of that being with WotC that they don't listen to their fans very well and tend to do what they want. If the feedback provided by the beta testers is not applied fairly and well then the game will not do well overall.

BTW your signature about OGL and D&D crack me up considering that WotC and D&D no longer support the OGL.

 

[El Mahdi]

Boldened statements mine.

The thing is if WotC tries to appeal to all the gaming groups and styles I do not think that this edition will be good. It is the case of carrying to many eggs in one basket, drop the basket and you loose everything. Same thing here, you try and appeal to everyone and no one group will like it all that much.

Pessimism does serve to be constructive WHEN the people that are pessmistic are offering constructive feedback and WotC actually listens to said feedback too. It has been my experience in 38 years of gaming with 13 of that being with WotC that they don't listen to their fans very well and tend to do what they want. If the feedback provided by the beta testers is not applied fairly and well then the game will not do well overall.

BTW your signature about OGL and D&D crack me up considering that WotC and D&D no longer support the OGL.

I disagree. Pessimism leads to people not providing feedback in the first place because they believe that WotC will not listen to them.

Optimism leads to people resisting their own emotional tendency to expect the worse, and acting as if good will come from one's attempts until proven otherwise.

But I will agree, WotC's necessity to listen to fans this time around is crucial to the success of 5E. I just choose to believe they will listen until shown that they won't.

Pessimism is a protectionist response with the purpose of protecting one from disapointment. But it also isolates one from potential success.

I instead advocate courage. Disapointment will not "hurt" you. And Optimism can rule the day.

I also disagree with the too many eggs in the basket analogy. The core rules do not have to appeal to everybody, they just need to be basic enough that everybody can agree on them. Then the options are what make it perfect for everybody. And with the common chasis, make it more utilizable from table to table and group to group...a commmon premise.

I believe it can work. However realistically I know not everyone will buy in. But I'm going to keep talking Optimism in the hope of getting as many people to approach this, and participate in, this endeavor in a positive way. The more that do so, the better the chance of success.

 

[slobster]

It is the case of carrying to many eggs in one basket, drop the basket and you loose everything. Same thing here, you try and appeal to everyone and no one group will like it all that much.

That's not how I would apply that particular metaphor to DDN.

To my thinking, you don't put all of your design attention (eggs) into appealing to one past edition's fans (the proverbial basket), because if you don't succeed with that goal, you lose everything. Much better to appeal to as many possible fans as you can while still making as good a game as you can. Accept that you won't please everyone, but don't go into it writing any particular groups of fans off from the get-go either.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

A really nice summary of what you want out of the game. I don't know about gridless though. Would you just guess-timate the distance of 5 feet? I don't see how we can go with gridless when range is such an important factor for ranged combat.

When we were playing 1st edition toy store in the mall bought blue box edition, we didn't have any grid maps. So we used chess boards and graph paper!

DM says "The Ogre is about 30' away". With gridless we do away with 5 foot steps, and AoO and such. Usually used when it's a small fight that isn't going to be a big deal. Take a round or two, but uses up a bit of party resources.

Range isn't all that detailed, we go more for flow and cool descriptions than full tactical play. But I would want the option to go that way when so inclined. 70% of my 3rd ed fights (GM or Player) was in the "Theater of the mind"

 

[Gaming Tonic]

I think fans of all editions will find somethings familiar and others that they need to adjust their minds to accept. So far I have been extremely excited by the playtest and when you see the open playtest material on the 24th you will see what I am talking about. Make sure to check out my interview with Mike Mearls on Monday if you want a jump on a lot of the mechanics you will see. After having the playtest materials for several months I was allowed an interview with him that discusses my playtest experience and the questions all reflect that.

Many are concerned with grid vs. non grid and this is much less of an issue. My personal thoughts on the game will appear Monday as well and will answer a few questions about this. If you like your current edition play it, but you should try the open playtest and see what you think so far and pay attention to how the playtest material changes as the feedback from the playtesters is considered in the revisions.

 

[ren1999]

about. Make sure to check out my interview with Mike Mearls on Monday if you want a jump on a lot of the mechanics you will see.

Please let us know in this thread when you've posted your interview.

 

[Lanefan]

The old-schoolers have their faded copies of 0D&D and AD&D 1&2, several retro-clones to choose from, and re-prints of AD&D on the way. They have no need to compromise.

As one such, I'm nowhere near as cut-and-dried on this as you seem to think. If 5e can play like 1e only better I'll be happy as a pig in mud, and when it's released I'll give it a long look to see if it can.

4e fans have an edition of D&D that doesn't suck,

In your view, not shared by all

so why should they compromise and accept sucky D&D again?

So if it's not 4e it's sucky? I'll take that under advisement...

No, the more I see of 5e and the reaction to 5e, the more convinced I become that it doesn't have a viable path to success.

It's path to success is by being a playable game in all styles with top-notch adventures, deep rich settings, and a design-level encouragement to change things in the game to make it your own.

Lan-"taking the fifth is developing a whole new meaning around here"-efan