Smite as the signature move of Paladins.

[DogBackward]

True enough, but they could detect & dispel evil.

And Clerics can't?

 

[steeldragons]

Paladins and clerics don't kill each other and take their stuff...they share and borrow from each other. After asking in polite and civil manner, of course.

Yes, everything a Cleric of Moradin (or Bahamut or Paladine or ...who's the big "all good" god of FR? or whomever) a paladin probably can (and should be able to) do also.

But then a paladin gets the bells and whistles: laying on hands, detecting..."trouble" (from what we've read about their design plans for them, thus far), auras of defense against evil/opposing extraplanar creatures and undead and whatever else is in that gift bag.

All of which, imho, ought to come with the price of restrictions, be they alignment, a rigorous "code" or "ideals" or "virtues" or whatever they decide. The paladin is more about the flavor that comes from the added the crunch than the crunch itself.

Will SOME Fighter/Clerics or particularly martial clerics be able to rival a paladin or simulate a lot of their abilities? Sure they will. Can they present themselves/RP as beacons of justice and chivalry? Sure. Does that make them and the paladin synonymous or redundant? I tend to think not.

Close is close and similar is similar...neither makes them "the same."

And just as a side note, I am always left wondering why the parable is "The Cleric & the Paladin" in these kinds of discussions/arguments. What about the Thief/Rogue who likes to be extra stabby/sneaky. Is he stealing the Assassin's stuff? Or is the Assassin taking the Rogue's stuff cuz he can be sneaky and deadly too? The Mage who (we now know) has an array of "at will" (which I equate with "spontaneous") spells on their belt...she's taking the Sorcerer's stuff? Play a "Sorcerer-y Mage" OR play a "Magey-Sorcerer"! That's the fun of making up your own characters n' concepts.

You want to play a "bounty-hunter-ish" character. Do you make a Rogue and "Ranger" him up a bit with Tracker/Hunter background and/or weapon's mastery with traps n' non-lethal weapons? Or make a "Ranger" and 'Rogue" him up a bit with added stealth and information gathering via other backgrounds and themes? Or a Rogue-y Fighter or a Rangery-Assassin? Or versa ve?

There are LOTS n' LOTS of archetypes and tropes for character concepts that come verrrrry near the mark (if not overstepping by a foot or two) the archetypes and concepts of other characters. But we always see the complaints coming about from Cleric v. Paladin. Why is that? Just wonderin'.

But, re: Paladin v. Cleric, that's just me and how I view them and the places they hold in my game world/setting. I don't see clerics as taking the paladins' stuff...just using/sharing some of it.

[EDIT: I'll also add that I am coming from the perspective of the Paladin as a Divinely-gifted sub-/specialized brand of Fighter, not a Martially-gifted/specialized brand of Cleric. So, depending on how one approaches/views the Paladin from their base perspective may also be cause for some of the complaints/confusions. Just a guess. /EDIT]
--SD

 

[hafrogman]

True enough, but they could detect evil.

Aha! The perfect solution to the detect evil conundrum. Bring it back, but at the original range. . . six inches.

 

[DogBackward]

But then a paladin gets the bells and whistles: laying on hands,

We call it "Cure Light Wounds"

detecting..."trouble" (from what we've read about their design plans for them, thus far),

This was a blog from someone who wants the Paladin in, not someone talking about how the Paladin is going to be in.

auras of defense against evil/opposing extraplanar creatures and undead and whatever else is in that gift bag.

Protection from Evil, Magic Circle Against evil.

All of which, imho, ought to come with the price of restrictions, be they alignment, a rigorous "code" or "ideals" or "virtues" or whatever they decide. The paladin is more about the flavor that comes from the added the crunch than the crunch itself.

Already have it. Defy your god's tenets; lose your powers. Also, people who want to roleplay a Paladin will roleplay a Paladin. They don't need mechanical drawbacks to do it.

Will SOME Fighter/Clerics or particularly martial clerics be able to rival a paladin or simulate a lot of their abilities? Sure they will. Can they present themselves/RP as beacons of justice and chivalry? Sure. Does that make them and the paladin synonymous or redundant? I tend to think not.

You might want to look up the definition of "Redundant".

Close is close and similar is similar...neither makes them "the same."

No, but it does make them redundant.

And just as a side note, I am always left wondering why the parable is "The Cleric & the Paladin" in these kinds of discussions/arguments. What about the Thief/Rogue who likes to be extra stabby/sneaky. Is he stealing the Assassin's stuff?

Yes. There is no need for a separate Assassin class, because a Rogue does it just fine. The archetypes overlap too much. You want a "Death Attack"? It's called "High level Rogues have lots of Sneak Attack dice." Minor magic? Multiclass Wizard. At best, Assassin is a Theme, not a class.

The Mage who (we now know) has an array of "at will" (which I equate with "spontaneous") spells on their belt...she's taking the Sorcerer's stuff? Play a "Sorcerer-y Mage" OR play a "Magey-Sorcerer"! That's the fun of making up your own characters n' concepts.

I don't think there should be a Sorcerer, but that stems mostly from the fact that I'm not a fan of faux-Vancian magic. True Vancian magic I might like, though. Because the original Vancian magic would mean a mage could only hold 4-5 spells at a time, no matter their level... but it wasn't "per day", it was "at one time". Use up your spells, and you could re-prepare them immediately. It'd require a re-balance of the spell mechanics, but what better time to do that than a new edition?

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I'd be ok with the loss of smite, it wasn't there until 3E+, and I'd rather the Paladin be moved back to being mainly martial with a bit of divine ability.

 

[Minigiant]

That's not smite.

WHERE's THE CHA BONUS?

No Cha bonus to attack = No Paladin Smite

 

[Zaphling]

Pertinent to the editions in which he contributed, yes. To Next? Not at all.

That would matter... if this were Fourth Edition. It's not. In the edition that we have so far, there is no need for the Paladin, as the Cleric fits the role just fine. There's nothing that a Paladin is supposed to be able to do that the Cleric can't do already.

I love the Paladin. And I'll play one... by playing a Cleric with the Knight Background and Guardian Theme. But there's no reason to waste space in the core book with a class that will essentially be a very slightly modified version of the Cleric.

Exactly what would you give the Paladin that the Cleric doesn't already have? Explain why they would need to be separate classes, other than "Because that's the way it was a long, long time ago."

so, with the cleric having its own class abilities, you mean to say [MENTION=50642]DogBackward[/MENTION] that the other Paladin class abilities, such as Lay on Hands, Auras, Smite, immunity to fear, and detect evil be a Cleric's class abilities right now? because that would make the cleric so powerful.

clerics never had this abilities before, these was discovered because of a paladin.

if WOTC said that this version will united all of the players, then by NOT publishing a class called Paladin, i think they will fail that goal.

 

[Zaphling]

So what is your stand against Druids [MENTION=50642]DogBackward[/MENTION]?

No Druid at all, because the wizard can accomplish all of their spells and polymorphs spells?

 

[Frostmarrow]

I wonder if a full color picture of a paladin above a "recipe" for creating a paladin character from the building blocks of Cleric+LG+Guardian+Knight will placate the paladin fans? If so the ranger is in trouble too. I'm all for it as long as the picture is fantastic.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm not going to debate whether the new edition needs a paladin or not, but I will tell you flat out....its going to get one.

WOTC is going to make a paladin class. Too many people want it, and they are going to make it happen.