I don't understand Gridless combat. HELP!

[I'm A Banana]

Well, lets start with you, first.

I ask because I ran a playtest over the weekend and found that I absolutely hated the combat.... Am I a poor DM for preferring clear rules and aids for running a game?

Rest assured, you're not a bad DM.

Honestly, I think for long-term D&D players, it's a bit of a psychological thing. Maybe even a left brain/right brain thing. Some people really need the concrete representation of the field, others really chafe under that requirement. Most people probably ping somewhere in the middle, but folks like me just can't ever really enjoy minis-on-a-grid play. And folks like you maybe just can't ever really enjoy all-in-your-mind play. It's not something a logical argument can affect, it's just a feature of how our imaginations work differently. Maybe I'm more comfortable with abstract thought, maybe you're more comfortable with concrete facts. D&D should probably be able to do both.

So you're not a bad DM. Your just a DM who likes the grid. Nothin' wrong with that!

Now, onto the off-grid playstle:

I don't see the appeal of keeping track of sometimes dozens of creatures in my head... especially when the monsters are so terribly bland to begin with. It took all my attention and faculties to just keep track of the basics of what was going on, let alone breathe any kind of flavor or life into the encounters....What's so bad about the grid? Why not use the tools we have to allow freedom to focus on other aspects of play?

The thing that makes theater-of-the-mind play doable and fun is one simple mantra:

Don't sweat the small stuff.

The exact position of each creature doesn't matter. Exactly how many orcs the mage catches in the burning hands doesn't matter. You make a call that makes sense, and you go with it. You don't worry about the micro-balance of each use of each power and ability. You think about the scene cinematically, you make a call, and you run with it.

Those who enjoy this style don't see the grid as freeing, they see it as confining. It makes them think about little things like the position of each individual orc. Things that, in their mind, don't matter as much. They don't want to waste energy thinking about these little fiddly details. The plastic and the whiteboad and the grid and the measuring tape are obstacles to their imagination, not enablers.

Sometimes these things do matter, even to people who might generally prefer a more abstract system, but not all the time, in every fight. I'm probably a bit of an extreme: I don't think these things ever matter enough to justify the time, cost, and effort of breaking out plastic fobs. But I'm probably at one end of a bell curve.

Maybe you're closer to the other end! 4e had the problem that people closer to my end of the bell curve always. had. to. use. minis. And that's a problem that's just as bad as a system that NEVER lets you use minis.

It seems like a lot of people used minis in their playtest just fine. You should probably go with that! 5e doesn't seem to MAKE you do TotM-style combat.

 

[Lwaxy]

Seriously, just use a grid then.

Even back in the good old days we used at least some sort of hand drawn map for combat and put the peanuts as PCs and monsters when we were about getting confused.

 

[whearp]

Once again, thanks for all the really helpful input each of you have offered. Don't think I cannot see the non-mini side of the argument... I want to embrace it and I want to like it, and it tears at me that I don't seem to enjoy it. I already run my games with all kinds of fudging for the sake of keeping things fun and interesting... it's just keeping the entire scene in my head that is so daunting for me. I'm so forgetful and distractable... and without the mat and minis, the entire group is relying on me to inform them of what is going on. That's a terrifying load of responsibility for someone like me.

I guess I'm just anguishing needlesly. I don't expect anyone here to solve my problem, but I really do appreciate being heard and understood.

Also, I have downloaded that pdf, and I'll give it a good, long study.

I just want to be the best DM I can be. My players love my games, and I don't ever want to disappoint them.

 

[Umbran]

Those who enjoy this style don't see the grid as freeing, they see it as confining. It makes them think about little things like the position of each individual orc. Things that, in their mind, don't matter as much. They don't want to waste energy thinking about these little fiddly details.

In many cases, it isn't just about wasting energy on fiddly details, it is spending time working with details of rules.

It is often noted amongst science writers, that each time you use an equation, you lose roughly half your audience. A similar thing applies to RPGs. The more detailed the rules, the fewer people will want to use them. There's a spectrum for gamers, reaching from those who play almost strictly as a tactical wargame, to those who actually don't want to ever read a rulebook if they can help it.

 

[Uller]

I guess I just can't get it. It saddens me to think that Next might not be something that I can enjoy. Or at least not something I can DM. Thanks for the input, though.

There is no reason you can't use a grid. They asked playtesters to avoid using a grid because they want to see how the rules work for that style of play. Doesn't mean that the rules in anyway preclude the grid style of play...they just allow for other styles (unlike 4e which pretty much requires a grid).

I like grids for some fights. But sometimes I like to just describe what happens.

To use a grid divide speeds by 5. A cylinder or sphere becomes a burst. A cone becomes a close blast. A line...use a ruler or piece of string..

But give it a try without for a fight or two. You might like it. Many of us find the grid turns fights into vanilla games of checkers....players and dms focus on moving their tokens around rather than describing and visualizing the action.

For instance: the wizard in my game declared he readied sleep for when the horde of 20 goblins came around the corner. He wanted to hit as many goblins as he could but cast before their attacks hit the fighter and cleric in the front rank. With a grid following the 4e rules strictly...each goblin takes its turn as an individual, spending its minor, move and standard actions. So they come at the party one by one. With 'theater of the mind' style of play the dm describes the action a bit more realistically..."the first of the goblin horde appears around the corner, hesitate at the sight of the dwarves but then the weightt of the others behind them drive them forward to attack...just before the first blow lands the wizard, who has been chanting a spell brings his incantations to their apex and unleashes his power...twelve goblins are caght by the spell [rolls saves]. 8 fall to the floor in a peaceful slumber. 4 others slow down and yawn. Only one of these makes it far enough to attack..."

You, as the dm, have a lot more freedom to interprit what your players want to do and make the game world react in a way that makes sense...if the rules are well written they will be there for you to fall back on when you are unsure.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Once again, thanks for all the really helpful input each of you have offered. Don't think I cannot see the non-mini side of the argument... I want to embrace it and I want to like it, and it tears at me that I don't seem to enjoy it. I already run my games with all kinds of fudging for the sake of keeping things fun and interesting... it's just keeping the entire scene in my head that is so daunting for me. I'm so forgetful and distractable... and without the mat and minis, the entire group is relying on me to inform them of what is going on. That's a terrifying load of responsibility for someone like me.

I guess I'm just anguishing needlesly. I don't expect anyone here to solve my problem, but I really do appreciate being heard and understood.

Also, I have downloaded that pdf, and I'll give it a good, long study.

I just want to be the best DM I can be. My players love my games, and I don't ever want to disappoint them.

Sorry, i can´t see your problem. Just use a grid. Noone prevents you from doing so. And 5e will surely support the grid.

 

[WizarDru]

Wait....I wasn't supposed to use a grid for the playtest?

Honestly, we didn't even notice. I saw all the movement in feet and immediately translated (as did my players) it into 5" squares. I laid out a map and we went to town. The question actually came up about diagonal movement and I said 'eh, I think they're trying to keep it easy, so it's a straight 5'=1"'. And we went forth and played.

We played about 8 combats that night like that and never even realized. So you certainly can use a map.

 

[Stormonu]

As others have said, I think you'd be happier just swtiching to using a grid. From the poll I'm running asking about minis vs. no minis, the enjoyment of the game doesn't seem to be adversely affected running a gridded or gridless game - so go with what feels more comfortable to you.

 

[WizarDru]

I just want to be the best DM I can be. My players love my games, and I don't ever want to disappoint them.

DUDE. There is only one wrong way to play D&D and this is TO NOT HAVE FUN. Anything else is doing it right. You're doing it right. Play on, Sir. PLAY ON.

 

[Pickles JG]

I have always played D&D with a map even in the 70s & 80s but then I played it at a wargames club as a tactical miniatures game.

On the other hand I always played Feng Shui without a map & the fun there was cool descriptions of the players actions. Mooks would take cover not to get +4 defence but so the players could perform a cool stunt to mitigate it.
The problems with this are that it works best when you surrender some narrative control & that it is not tactical - you can feel as though you are perpetually depending on the whim of the DM. This applies to DM judgement such as how many kobbolds get fried by burning hands or how the hell charm person is supposed to work (no wait that's a different issue)

If I embrace action movie heroics & the feel of the game then gridless combat can work for me.
If you always want tactical feel & tension that is not dependent on DM arbitration then it is not so good but you should still give it a go trying to approach it with a different mindset. My chance to do this comes on Sunday & as I am not DMing I have not idea whether we we be TOTM or gridded.