Per-Encounter Powers

[jadrax]

So, you are advocating a game in which there are only at-will powers, then? Otherwise, having to rely on a short rest to regain abillities should not be any more problematic than having to rely on long rests to regain abilities.

Sleep is hard coded, if your GM isn't letting you sleep around every 24 hours you have way more problems than lack of spells.

 

[FireLance]

Sleep is hard coded, if your GM isn't letting you sleep around every 24 hours you have way more problems than lack of spells.

Resisting the urge to create an endless loop here...

Why would sleep be hard coded? There is nothing in the rules that requires the DM to allow the players to take long rests.

Of course, there may be some scenarios where taking short rests are inadvisbile - ones in which the PCs have a deadline of minutes, for example, but that would automatically rule out the option of long rests, too.

A more relaxed deadline, maybe hours, could allow the PCs to take short rests but not long rests.

I suppose a DM could always choose to run games in which the PCs always have minutes to complete their objective, after which, succeed or fail, they are allowed to take a long rest.

However, I fail to see why such a gaming style should be considered the norm for the purposes of game balance.

 

[jadrax]

Why would sleep be hard coded? There is nothing in the rules that requires the DM to allow the players to take long rests.

Do you seriously think there are many games out there where the GM is not allowing, or indeed not insisting that the players sleep once in every 24 hours or so on a regular basis?

It is the assumed normal, because it is the normal.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

If you want to argue that you should take away powers that are regained after a short rest, you need to show how combat balance becomes more difficult in a situation in which you have powers that are regained after a short rest, compared to a situation in which you only have at-will powers.

I'll take a stab at this. Let's compare imaginary games A and B, where A has only at-will powers and B has both at-will and short-rest powers. Let's say that we intend the typical at-will power in game A to inflict an average of 10 points of damage per attack. We design game B so that an at-will power averages 5 points and a short-rest power averages 15 points. Clearly, a party playing game B will have the same damage output per round as a party playing game A, if in game B you tend to use short-rest powers half the time.

But savvy players use their short-rest powers first, since there's no point in saving them for a future encounter (unlike dailies). For short (easy) encounters, PCs in game B average 15 points of damage per round. For long (hard) encounters, they average less than 10 points, and the harder the battle, the lower their average damage per round. Conclusion? In games with short-rest powers, easy encounters are easier and hard encounters are harder, compared to a similar game designed without such powers. Short-rest powers indeed make it harder to create "balanced" encounters.

That said, I am not personally against short-rest powers. The above analysis applies to a vaguely 4E-like game, but it is possible to mitigate the front-loading issue.

 

[FireLance]

Do you seriously think there are many games out there where the GM is not allowing, or indeed not insisting that the players sleep once in every 24 hours or so on a regular basis?

It is the assumed normal, because it is the normal.

Let's assume I made the obvious joke about the players needing their rest...

Now, I am sure that there will be DMs out there who are fine with the PCs taking regular long rests, but are not fine with the PCs taking regular short rests.

I just wonder if they are common, or if they are not much more numerous than DMs who don't allow their PCs to take long rests.

 

[jadrax]

I just wonder if they are common, or if they are not much more numerous than DMs who don't allow their PCs to take long rests.

Its very hard to say, which is the problem. My own experience of GMs would be around 50/50. But as a GM it completely depends upon the situation and the style of game. If your racing to save the princess from being sacrificed to the ebil cult of ebil, its not happening, if your hex crawling it will happen after every fight.

 

[FireLance]

Conclusion? In games with short-rest powers, easy encounters are easier and hard encounters are harder, compared to a similar game designed without such powers. Short-rest powers indeed make it harder to create "balanced" encounters.

I hadn't thought about it that way before, but you're right. Well done!

 

[Mercutio01]

Let's say that we intend the typical at-will power in game A to inflict an average of 10 points of damage per attack. We design game B so that an at-will power averages 5 points.

This is where your argument fails for me. The at-will damages are not the same. Game A has 10 for at-will, and Game B should as well. Then it also adds in the short-rest powers on top of that.

I'd be interested in comparing like to like here, with at-will values which are identical, because that is what actually happened.

 

[FireLance]

This is where your argument fails for me. The at-will damages are not the same. Game A has 10 for at-will, and Game B should as well. Then it also adds in the short-rest powers on top of that.

I'd be interested in comparing like to like here, with at-will values which are identical, because that is what actually happened.

Think about it in terms of different classes instead of different games. Class A only has at-will powers, while class B has at-wills and powers that are regained after a short rest. If class A is to be balanced with class B, and powers that are regained after a short rest are better than at-will powers, then class A's at-will powers need to be better than class B's at-will powers. This makes class B better than class A for shorter, presumably easier encounters (when fewer at-wills are used), and worse than class A in longer, presumably tougher encounters (when more at-wills are used). Whether the difference is significant or not is another issue, but it certainly does look like there will be a difference.

 

[Mercutio01]

Think about it in terms of different classes instead of different games. Class A only has at-will powers, while class B has at-wills and powers that are regained after a short rest. If class A is to be balanced with class B, and powers that are regained after a short rest are better than at-will powers, then class A's at-will powers need to be better than class B's at-will powers. This makes class B better than class A for shorter, presumably easier encounters (when fewer at-wills are used), and worse than class A in longer, presumably tougher encounters (when more at-wills are used). Whether the difference is significant or not is another issue, but it certainly does look like there will be a difference.

My point wasn't that it is not possible to do so, but that it is not, in fact, what has actually happened.

We can cite corner cases and propose solutions all day, but the key point is that this did not actually happen in 4E, and so far has not happened in DDN either. I would be interested to see if it could be done (although I'd probably use the dial that did not include encounter powers out of personal preference and observations from my own play) and done well, but to date I have nothing to use as a benchmark other than an edition where this did not happen.