The (Non-)Playtest Experience, or How the Hit Die Mechanic was a Non-Starter

[Herremann the Wise]

I think the two things this thread shows is:
- The hit point/healing/damage issue is very important to many posters on ENWorld; to the point of defining one group of players versus the other.
- It is an issue that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later if we're all going to fit under the one tent. WotC get those dials happening please.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Mercutio01]

I think the two things this thread shows is:
- The hit point/healing/damage issue is very important to many posters on ENWorld; to the point of defining one group of players versus the other.
- It is an issue that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later if we're all going to fit under the one tent. WotC get those dials happening please.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

I can't xp you, but I had to note that both points are extremely true.

It's interesting to see that yet another HP thread has shot to the top of the subforum. It's obvious to me that the split is fairly even and that the healing mechanic is one of the most important dials WotC should be working on.

 

[KidSnide]

But as soon as I explain the hit die / healing mechanics, the GURPS GM (who was going to be a PC for the playtest), hands back the character sheet, and says, "I won't play a game where your hit points are LITERALLY guaranteed to be returned to you every night. Period. If this is how the game works, it's a waste of time to even play it. Let's do something else."

Since the playtest specifically provides an "old-school" mode without backgrounds, themes, hit dice or long rests, I think the real question is why you didn't decide to play that. It's marginally useful to know that there are some people who are simply unwilling to play with a fast-healing mechanic, but it is far more useful to find out whether those same people will enjoy core D&DN with "no fast healing" rules.

-KS

 

[RigaMortus2]

The rule that guarantees full HP recovery after a night's rest has been in place for a long time. It just used to cost gold - 15 gp per CLW wand charge or 50 gp per CLW potion in 3rd, if I remember correctly. So if you want to restore this thing you think is "realism", leave the 4e/ 5e rule exactly as it is, and then add "also, deduct some money."

That works in campaign settings that allow magic shops on every corner, just like a corner drug store. In low magic settings, where wands and potions are not readily available, this arguement doesn't hold up.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

No amount of arguing over definitions is going to change the fact that this really bothers people. If they insist on one day healing and HD as a core rule they are going to lose peope that expect a touch more realism from the game.

[/QUOTE]

Yes. I've talked to my group about it (8 people) , and we agree unanimously, that we are not interested in a game with such assumptions. It's a dealbreaker. I don't mind houseruling minor things, but the assumption of healing overnight changes EVERYTHING. Kid falls out of a tree, breaks both legs, but runs a marathon tomorrow. Soldiers with horrible wounds are back in the thick of battle a day later. Adventure design will go by the assumption that parties are at or near max hit points for every fight. Not using the healing rules will make every commercial adventure 10 times deadlier. An encounter balanced with the assumption most parties are full up on hp is not balanced for parties pushing on down to 1/4 health. Houseruling healing back to pre 4e standards will make every encounter deadly. People don't like the 15 minute day? Well, you just reinforced it. Why bother fighting down 20 hit points? You'll be max tomorrow without even burning a potion or spell.
I don't see what's so hard to understand about hit points representing physical damage. Yes, it's a combination of various things, but part of that is physical damage. I'll once again quote Justin Alexander: "The trick to understanding the hit point system is understand that a hit point is not equal to a hit point. In D&D, 1 hit point of damage always represents a physical wound. However, the severity of the wound represented varies depending on how many hit points the victim has." These wounds do not disappear overnight without involving magic.
I'm not prepared to rewrite every adventure I buy just to get the game to run like I want. If the hit point mechanic stands as it is in the playtest, then WOTC won't get our money. No amount of playtesting will change that. If someone hates broccoli, you won't get them to like it by forcing broccoli down their throat. It's much easier to serve broccoli on the side and let them add it to their meal than it is to expect them to pick the broccoli out of their bowl. Even if they get every last bit of broccoli out, it's still gonna leave a foul taste.

 

[n00bdragon]

If people are so bothered because recovering all your HP overnight is "unrealistic" why aren't they bothered by the fact that a man with one HP fights just as well as a man with a million HP?

I'm willing to bed dollars to dimes the whole "unrealistic" thing is just people trying to justify the fact that they have always played a certain way and they simply cannot accept change.

 

[F700]

But as soon as I explain the hit die / healing mechanics, the GURPS GM (who was going to be a PC for the playtest), hands back the character sheet, and says, "I won't play a game where your hit points are LITERALLY guaranteed to be returned to you every night. Period. If this is how the game works, it's a waste of time to even play it. Let's do something else."

How did the OP even become friends with someone like this?

D&D is a social game, it wouldn't matter what the system was, playing with a guy like this wouldn't be good under any circumstances.

Why would a group of people even let a single chump dictate their activities to them? Does he have to get their permission to see a movie? Go to a resturant?

If anyone gave me "If this is how the game works, it's a waste of time to even play it. Let's do something else." my answer would be "Sure, see you later, hope you don't need a ride home cuz you'll be waiting outside for 3 or 4 hours while we do this thing."

In no way does this indicate a problem with 5e, or the playtest. It only indicates an issue with the maturity of a single player.

 

[Herschel]

If people are so bothered because recovering all your HP overnight is "unrealistic" why aren't they bothered by the fact that a man with one HP fights just as well as a man with a million HP?

I'm willing to bed dollars to dimes the whole "unrealistic" thing is just people trying to justify the fact that they have always played a certain way and they simply cannot accept change.

Exactly. There's obviously nothing wrong with wanting a system that better represents physical damage, what's wrong is claiming that D&D's Hit Points are that system.

 

[Cadfan]

Exactly. There's obviously nothing wrong with wanting a system that better represents physical damage, what's wrong is claiming that D&D's Hit Points are that system.

Yeah, when people start claiming that healing all of your hit points in one night is crazy unrealistic, but healing all of your hit points in three days is acceptable, I have to wonder what's really going on.

I do think they may have a legitimate complaint. In a "heal in 3-ish days" game, you're going to just bring along magic. And "a wizard did it" is a great way to justify things that otherwise might gum up your internal consistency (in this case, "a cleric did it).

I just think that the legitimate complaint they have isn't necessarily the one they think they have, and that the draw back of the earlier systems where it was just assumed that everyone had magic all the time are actual draw backs that at least deserved to be weighed against the benefits, instead of swept under the rug with cries of "realism."

 

[Herschel]

Kid falls out of a tree, breaks both legs, but runs a marathon tomorrow. Soldiers with horrible wounds are back in the thick of battle a day later.

Except that ISN'T WHAT HP DAMAGE HAS EVER REPRESENTED PER THE DESIGNERS OF EVERY EDITION. Go back and re-read the 1E PHB. Don't AD/HD it, read the WHOLE section and comprehend it. This isn't about "horrible wounds", that's not only a strawman but utterly ignorant of what the game books actually say about it.

People don't like the 15 minute day? Well, you just reinforced it. Why bother fighting down 20 hit points? You'll be max tomorrow without even burning a potion or spell.

Again, this is utterly a gross misrepresentation of the way it actually works. You're less likely to go for a 15-minute adventuring day because one tough fight doesn't leave you with nothing left in the tank. Also, even mediocre-designed encounters can challenge a party's resources leaving them in daner of death even with most of their surges left.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about hit points representing physical damage.

BECAUSE IT'S NOT! Read the friggin' books again.

I'll once again quote Justin Alexander: "The trick to understanding the hit point system is understand that a hit point is not equal to a hit point. In D&D, 1 hit point of damage always represents a physical wound. However, the severity of the wound represented varies depending on how many hit points the victim has." These wounds do not disappear overnight without involving magic.

So you take a partial excerpt from a blogger and twist it. That's not a credible take. Read the books again. Heck, read the blog again:
http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1034/roleplaying-games/explaining-hit-points

And read the responses. The line you quote doesn't match the rest of the essay even.