How do you like your martial characters?

Do you think it is possible to have characters disparate in terms of structure that are also balanced in terms of fairness and power?

I do. I also think that it's a really hard challenge. And nothing ever produced by WoTC before Essentials has ever given me the impression that any of the owners of D&D post-Gygax have a clue how to go about doing this. 1e pre-weapon specialisation was a miserable failure for the fighter. (Compare fighters to clerics) - and the thief was a problem (and nothing like as much of one as the monk). 2e headed to failure despite the near solid core Gygax left them. 3e was bad right out of the gate and only got worse - and Pathfinder has added both the Gunslinger and the Summoner.

There are two approaches that work. Exuberance and backlash.

Exuberance says that everyone is the best there is at what they do. (At least the best at their level). And exuberance is why the 2e approach worked. If you want a huge horde of enemies chopped up, who are you going to call? The Fighter. The cleric is doing less than two thirds of his damage of a fighter with weapon spec - but the fighter can't step on anyone else's toes.

Backlash says that for mechanical reasons the characters that are actually more powerful don't want to use their powers. Because they cost Sanity (call of Cthulu) or accidently let demons into the world (WHFRP). So although they spike higher, people know why they don't do everything.

So does D&D next have either backlash or exuberance? It certainly don't have backlash. As for exuberance, we can check by looking at the 'mundane' archetypes. The fighter and the thief. Is the fighter exuberant? Is he really the best there is at what he does? Take away theme and stat differences and the fighter has an unexplained +1 to hit - and +4 damage (of which +2 are explained). The warpriest on the other hand can match that +4 damage with +d6 from crusader's strike, and gains +1 to AC against the fighter's +1 to hit. Is the fighter exuberant? Hell no. As for the thief? The thief came closer. It's the skill monkey. (Who can't find traps based on the build). But as a sneak is the thief exuberant? Can the thief cross even a doorway without cover? No. Can the thief climb round the doorway? No. The thief is not exuberant.

If your resources are interchangeable you quickly run into an analogue to Gresham's Law. "Bad money drives out good." Fighter resources are interchangeable with warpriest ones.

I'm certainly looking for fairness between the classes and in particular the mundane classes versus the magical. I'm glad the road they seem to be taking is different from the current edition though. I don't want the classes to seem to be homogeneous lumps of appoximately equal measure.

I'd rather they seemed homogenous and really weren't than we were back to a huge power disparity that claimed not to exist. But then I'm a 4e player.
 

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Do you think it is possible to have characters disparate in terms of structure that are also balanced in terms of fairness and power?
Possible, yes. It's also possible that the next time you go to take a breath, all the air will just happen to be on the other side of the room. Possible, but unlikely.

OK, that's a little unfair. It's just unlikely, and would take a great deal of design talent and effort, and probably result in a lot of arbitrary 'kludges,' but it could conceivably possible to take disparate class structures, and hammer them into something resembling balance. It'd be an inefficient, inelegant way to do it, and I don't see how it could fail to be less well-balanced than putting the same effort into designing in balance from the ground up. Bottom line, disparate sub-systems and structures make the game less well-balanced than it could have been had it been more consistent, ceteris paribus.

It's also entirely possible to balance disparate sub-systems, /at a point/. The result is a game that balances, but only in some narrow range of play styles, campaign pacing, or whatever. Not necessarily inelegant, but 'tense.'

my point is that there are many who didn't like 4e because of the homogenized structure of characters, not because they preferred inherent unfairness between classes.
I see the distinction, but don't find it meaningful. The end result of pushing for disparate sub-systems and power levels is class imbalance, whatever the claimed reason for it. To put it another way, there's an aesthetic objection to the common structure, it's pointed out quite clearly that the common structure enables much greater balance. If the objection remains, then, if not 'preferring' inherent imbalance, it's still a matter of demanding inherent imbalance and not caring about the impact that has on others. Depraved indifference rather than malice aforethought.

(I'd quibble about 'unfairness' - imbalanced classes are perfectly fair if everyone is free to choose their class - but that's not the point.)


The true differences between classes is evident in play and primarily garnered from the character's role but when only perusing the rules or discussing things from only a theoretical perspective, the differences are not as obvious.
True. And it's not like this is a court of law where "ignorance is no excuse." Though, at this late date, I wouldn't expect anyone to still be arguing from uninformed opinion.
 

Possible, yes. It's also possible that the next time you go to take a breath, all the air will just happen to be on the other side of the room. Possible, but unlikely.

OK, that's a little unfair. It's just unlikely, and would take a great deal of design talent and effort, and probably result in a lot of arbitrary 'kludges,' but it could conceivably possible to take disparate class structures, and hammer them into something resembling balance. It'd be an inefficient, inelegant way to do it, and I don't see how it could fail to be less well-balanced than putting the same effort into designing in balance from the ground up. Bottom line, disparate sub-systems and structures make the game less well-balanced than it could have been had it been more consistent, ceteris paribus.

It's also entirely possible to balance disparate sub-systems, /at a point/. The result is a game that balances, but only in some narrow range of play styles, campaign pacing, or whatever. Not necessarily inelegant, but 'tense.'
I think then I'm just a little bit more hopeful than you; cautious optimism if you will. I think two obvious goals before wizards at the moment are a balance between mundane and magical classes, as well as classes having a more differentiated identity. Through open playtesting, I don't think the testers are going to let WotC get away with 5e without producing both. I'm sure the design boffins there will give it a good go and be mostly successful. Whatever the case, I'm quite sure it is not of the probability of particle partitioning that you presented. ;)

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

I think then I'm just a little bit more hopeful than you; cautious optimism if you will.
I make no secret of my cynicism.

I think two obvious goals before wizards at the moment are a balance between mundane and magical classes, as well as classes having a more differentiated identity.
Those might be two of their goals, but they appear to be mutually exclusive. 4e delivered balance between martial (not mundane, commoners are mundane) classes and casters. It was rejected, in no small part for doing just that.

Through open playtesting, I don't think the testers are going to let WotC get away with 5e without producing both.
I believe they won't just allow it, they'll enthusiastically sign on. Why? Because those who are dissatisfied with the retro-nostalgia and imbalance of the 5e playtest will simply drop out. Those who want the nostalgia, or are just delighted to hammer nails into 4e's coffin will stick with it. The proportion of positive feedback will rise with each iteration, and WotC will conclude they've created the perfect D&D.

Whatever the case, I'm quite sure it is not of the probability of particle partitioning that you presented. ;)

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
Yeah, that was over the top.
 

Yeah, despite Tony V's cynicism, I do remain hopeful for a neglected middle.

Look, I LOVE the fact that 4e classes are fairly well balanced. I do. And, I don't believe that the balance came at the cost of creativity. However, I do accept that some do believe this to be true.

Honestly, I think a large amount of it is in the presentation, not in the substance. Nobody truly wants unbalanced games. Not really. If we did, then 3e wouldn never have replaced 2e and we'd likely all be playing RIFTS. We want ... balance is such a loaded word... parity. The classes don't have to be exactly the same, but, they have to at least be playing the same game.

AD&D largely did achieve this for fighter types. The fighter types dealt so much damage that if you wanted something dead, the fighter was certainly a viable option. Or ranger or paladin, doesn't matter. The thief was a bit more problematic but, honestly, I saw the workaround for this with the multiclassing options. An MU/Thief or a Cleric/Thief, or ever a Fighter/Thief needed about the same xp as the other classes because thief xp was so low. A Fighter/Thief doesn't need a whole lot more xp than a ranger, for example. So, you're not really giving up anything.

That's kludgy though, so, I'd prefer the thief/rogue to get some serious loving - like it did in 3e. Unfortunately in 3e, the casters got so much loving that it becomes problematic. Now, there's no going back to the AD&D idea of having sharp limitations on casters because that's going to annoy far too many people who want to play casters and want to cast spells most of the time.

But, if you present the classes in such a way that the descriptions show how strongly the classes are differentiated, then I think many of the criticisms go away. 4e made the mistake of trying to show how much each class was the same - they all use largely the same mechanics - and people reacted negatively to that. People want class to differentiate characters. Some people want unique mechanics for each class.

Well, I think we can have our cake and eat it too. Themes are where you differentiate characters in the game world. Make the themes actually matter, and you have two totally different characters, even though they might be the same class. The classes are the basic chasis - mostly the fundamental stuff like AC, HD, attack bonuses, casting capabilities and whatnot. So, classes are going to look fairly similar on paper - just like if you look at two classes in the D20 SRD, they don't look terribly different. Open a tab in your browser to a d20 SRD Druid and a D20 SRD Wizard and those pages look pretty close. They should, both classes largely use the same mechanics.

Sorry to ramble on so much. Just sort of following a train of thought to see where it goes.
 

I think "compromise in the name of fairness or the enjoyment of fellow players" is a fair characterization of 'balance.'
Except it implies those who don't want uniformly balanced classes are people who don't care about the enjoyment of their fellow players. This assumes that the enjoyment of everyone else is brought about by balanced play. This is pretty demonstrably untrue.

I like balance. I prefer it in the game. But to imply that people who don't prefer it don't care about the "enjoyment of fellow players" is pretty laughable. And I think your statement, "there are ...those who find having to compromise in the name of fairness or the enjoyment of fellow players to be overly constraining" pretty much implies what I'm saying.

That's a very misleading statement, in my mind. And, I think it's pretty overgeneralized. As always, play what you like :)
 

Honestly, I think a large amount of it is in the presentation, not in the substance. Nobody truly wants unbalanced games. Not really. If we did, then 3e wouldn never have replaced 2e and we'd likely all be playing RIFTS. We want ... balance is such a loaded word... parity.
In some ways 3e is /less/ balanced than 2e. And a lot of people have played RIFTS enjoyed it.

Really, D&D has been a successful game for a long time without being very well-balanced at all. While some of the rejection of 4e can reasonably be attributed to nostalgia, the usual resistance to change further abetted and amplified by the SRD/Pathfinder, and nerdrage, I can't reject out of hand the possibility that there's something else.

D&D, as the 'first,' RPG has the strongest name recognition of any RPG, by far. That means a lot of new players start with it, simply because they're likely to have heard of it, and it's easy to find a game. It's also had really quite poor class balance for almost it's entire history (excepting 4e, of course). And, it's always had a system of rewarding frequent play with greater character power (experience). Put two together and you have an environment in which experienced players have a continual stream of new players to over-awe with their established characters and/or (particularly with 3e) their hard-won system mastery.



The classes don't have to be exactly the same, but, they have to at least be playing the same game.
Nod. Common structure, well-defined keywords, clear rules - they all help with that.

AD&D largely did achieve this for fighter types. The fighter types dealt so much damage that if you wanted something dead, the fighter was certainly a viable option.
AD&D had a long history. At first, fighters had little more going for them than the possibility of rolling an 18/00 strength - and magic items could grant that or 'Giant Strength' to fighters, clerics, and even thieves. Certainly once UA weapon specialization dovetailed with the obscure TWFing rules in the DMG, specific sorts of fighters became quisinarts of doom, and stayed that way in 2e. I don't think that damage specialization really balanced the great versatility of Vancian casters, but it certainly helped keep them relevant through the 'sweet spot' of mid-levels (~4-7, IMHO).

The thief was a bit more problematic but, honestly, I saw the workaround for this with the multiclassing options. An MU/Thief or a Cleric/Thief, or ever a Fighter/Thief needed about the same xp as the other classes because thief xp was so low. A Fighter/Thief doesn't need a whole lot more xp than a ranger, for example. So, you're not really giving up anything.
Yeah, that's a workaround.

That's kludgy though, so, I'd prefer the thief/rogue to get some serious loving - like it did in 3e. Unfortunately in 3e, the casters got so much loving that it becomes problematic. Now, there's no going back to the AD&D idea of having sharp limitations on casters because that's going to annoy far too many people who want to play casters and want to cast spells most of the time.
All true. If casters can't have sharp limitations, then they need less potent spells, or non-casters need more potent and /much/ more versatile abilities. Those are also clearly unacceptable.

Ergo, there's folks out there what hate balance.



But, if you present the classes in such a way that the descriptions show how strongly the classes are differentiated, then I think many of the criticisms go away. 4e made the mistake of trying to show how much each class was the same - they all use largely the same mechanics - and people reacted negatively to that. People want class to differentiate characters. Some people want unique mechanics for each class.
I've heard the theory that the only thing 4e really goofed on was presentation. If it was a mistake, it was an understandable one. Being up-front with the mechanical commonalities of the classes made 4e much easier to learn. That should be a boon, even to experienced players, since even they are learning a new system.

Unless, of course, the niche D&D had secretly carved out for itself was one of intellectual challenge and system-mastery rewards that thrived on the game taking some extra time and effort to learn and master. Thus the early criticism that 4e was 'dumbed down' - part of the fun was that it wasn't quick and easy to learn.

Well, I think we can have our cake and eat it too. Themes are where you differentiate characters in the game world. Make the themes actually matter, and you have two totally different characters, even though they might be the same class. The classes are the basic chasis - mostly the fundamental stuff like AC, HD, attack bonuses, casting capabilities and whatnot. So, classes are going to look fairly similar on paper - just like if you look at two classes in the D20 SRD, they don't look terribly different. Open a tab in your browser to a d20 SRD Druid and a D20 SRD Wizard and those pages look pretty close. They should, both classes largely use the same mechanics.
That is another reason "the classes are samey" never really flew. 3e classes, especially casters who shared many of the same spells, could be pretty 'samey' too. The real difference wasn't homogeneity but parity. Without trap choices among classes, the challenge of mastering the system is lessened. 4e did eventually bury itself in a mountain of trap /feats/, but I guess that was too little, too late.

Sorry to ramble on so much. Just sort of following a train of thought to see where it goes.
Interesting post. May your train of thought never de-rail.
 

Except it implies those who don't want uniformly balanced classes are people who don't care about the enjoyment of their fellow players.
Or that they care about something else more, yes. When you (not you personally, some undefined typical gamer) sit down to play, you are obviously concerned with your own enjoyment, and you may or may not feel up to the task of ensuring everyone else's fun, too. As a DM, you might have more of a commitment to the fun of others, but it's not an absolute obligation.

You /should/ be able to play for your own fun without worrying about ruining anyone else's - balance is the system's contribution to making that possible, and, yes, when looking at the things you can do to have fun, it may constrain you a bit. Actively restraining yourself from what you could do in the interest of everyone else's enjoyment could also be pretty constraining.

This assumes that the enjoyment of everyone else is brought about by balanced play.
Not at all. Balance simply makes it less likely that one person's fun will ruin the next person's. It doesn't guarantee either of them will have fun, just makes it more likely they can both have their fun, at the same time, in the same game. It's like how you can maybe have some fun swinging your fist (maybe in Taebo class), but you should watch out for other peoples' faces in the path of it. Balance just sorta says, "everyone, stand well apart while swinging your fists, so you won't have to worry about hitting eachother."


I like balance. I prefer it in the game. But to imply that people who don't prefer it don't care about the "enjoyment of fellow players" is pretty laughable.
I'm glad I could give you a chuckle.
 
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Or that they care about something else more, yes. When you (not you personally, some undefined typical gamer) sit down to play, you are obviously concerned with your own enjoyment, and you may or may not feel up to the task of ensuring everyone else's fun, too. As a DM, you might have more of a commitment to the fun of others, but it's not an absolute obligation.

You /should/ be able to play for your own fun without worrying about ruining anyone else's - balance is the system's contribution to making that possible, and, yes, when looking at the things you can do to have fun, it may constrain you a bit. Actively restraining yourself from what you could do in the interest of everyone else's enjoyment could also be pretty constraining.
This is true. And reasonably stated. The statement I replied to wasn't, in my opinion.
Not at all. Balance simply makes it less likely that one person's fun will ruin the next person's. It doesn't guarantee either of them will have fun, just makes it more likely they can both have their fun, at the same time, in the same game.
Again, this is true for some people. Not for others. There are quite a few games that I've played for fun (even made up) that are based around imbalance.

Years ago, when I used to play Super Smash Bros. (on the N64) with my friends, we'd make up mini-games to play. Baseball (two players of Ness hitting a full-powered Samus blast back and forth until it hit someone), dodgeball (one guy throwing shells at three people cramped up in the Star Fox level, near the fin), etc. One of the games we made up was the Juggernaut game, where the damage was set to 50%, and handicaps were set to 1 (lowest) for three players, and 9 (highest) for the juggernaut. He'd proceed to kick ass until everyone was dead (unless a victory happened, as happened infrequently).

The point is, the imbalance was the point of the game. To other gamers, imbalance may not be the point, but it might enhance their fun. And that extends to the "fellow players" of the guy who might reject strict balance in a game. And, again, I think your statement of "there are ...those who find having to compromise in the name of fairness or the enjoyment of fellow players to be overly constraining" pretty much implies that their fellow players don't think likewise. And that's misleading, in my mind, or at least overgeneralizes things.
I'm glad I could give you a chuckle.
Wish I didn't need to in non-humor threads. As always, play what you like :)
 

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