How do you like your martial characters?

I wonder though, if it isn't so much balance that is the issue, but transparency. I think some players and DM's have a real problem with having all the tricks explained up front. It's kinda like how if you know how a magic trick is done, it loses something. In an unbalanced system, typically a number of the subsystems are baroque enough that there really isn't any (or at least very little) transparency, thus the game retains some of the "magic". In a balanced system, it's very difficult to be balanced and not transparent, thus all the "behind the curtain" details become very in your face.

Again, just musing. My tastes definitely fall into the tranparency and balance=good game design camp. But, I am at least trying to figure out the appeal of a long term RPG with unbalanced mechanics.
Well, one closely related appeal is 'rewards for system mastery.' Imbalanced elements can indeed be 'hidden.' Powerful combos built from disparate options, obscure/uninteresting-sounding options that break the game on a technicality of phrasing, enticing 'trap options' that sound cool but are ineffectual. An imbalanced system makes the effort of attaining system mastery and optimizing very rewarding in terms of the power disparity you get when you're done. No matter how balanced a system, mastery and optimization will always reap some rewards, though, so I doubt that's the whole story.

Another factor could be play styles. An imbalanced game may result in a certain play style being extremely effective. If that's a style you favor, you feel 'supported' by that system. If you go to a better-balanced system, it seems like it 'doesn't support' or even 'forces you away from' that style.
 

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I'll note that a balanced system can be used to create unequal contests. It just does so with a bit more precision than an imbalanced one.
That's true, but not what I'm commenting on. Remember, I prefer balance in an RPG, personally.
IIRC, the old DMG did say that attempts had been made to balance the game, and that caution should be exercised in certain areas. The mechanisms meant to balance it were a little odd by modern standards - different experience charts for each class, brutally restricted spellcasting, wizards starting pathetically weak and growing into vast power ('balanced' over years of play), etc. That last was stated quite explicitly, for instance, so 1e, at least, did advise you that casters would dominate at higher levels - in return for sucking at lower levels.
In my opinion, that's information, not balance in the term that most people refer to it by. To me, information is important (if it's not balanced, or meant to be, say so!), but it's different than balance is to me.

Again, though, you don't need to convince me to like balance. I already do.
You're fine. Like I said, the dichotomy wasn't mine, I was just trying to elucidate the nature of the proposed dichotomy, by making a point about what balance /is/.
I just took exception with the "those who find compromise in the name of... enjoyment of their fellow players to be overly constraining", since it seemed (to me) to imply that people who don't like balance don't care about the enjoyment of their friends. If that's not what you meant, then I think it's unfortunate wording, though not intentionally malicious. As always, play what you like :)

I wonder though, if it isn't so much balance that is the issue, but transparency. I think some players and DM's have a real problem with having all the tricks explained up front. It's kinda like how if you know how a magic trick is done, it loses something. In an unbalanced system, typically a number of the subsystems are baroque enough that there really isn't any (or at least very little) transparency, thus the game retains some of the "magic". In a balanced system, it's very difficult to be balanced and not transparent, thus all the "behind the curtain" details become very in your face.

Again, just musing. My tastes definitely fall into the tranparency and balance=good game design camp. But, I am at least trying to figure out the appeal of a long term RPG with unbalanced mechanics.
Agreed. I've said it before, but presentation is key to 5e. This is likely part of it.

I like a certain amount of transparency. I really like a different kind of transparency: saying if the game is meant to be balanced, or if certain options might unbalance the game. I've made a couple notes in my game on stuff like this, Mutants and Masterminds makes a couple notes (time travel), etc. The game should, if nothing else, be transparent in these areas (introduced via modules, etc.). As always, play what you like :)
 

That's true, but not what I'm commenting on. Remember, I prefer balance in an RPG, personally.
Sure, but you enjoyed this 'unbalanced' game you and your friends did, which was an unequal contest - much like most D&D encounters, actually, which the DM can make excessively difficult if he really wants to. A 'standard' encounter in 3e or 4e, for instance, is a 'speed bump.' That doesn't mean encounters are imbalanced (though both games have issues with encounter balance), just that they're easy encounters.
 

Sure, but you enjoyed this 'unbalanced' game you and your friends did, which was an unequal contest - much like most D&D encounters, actually, which the DM can make excessively difficult if he really wants to. A 'standard' encounter in 3e or 4e, for instance, is a 'speed bump.' That doesn't mean encounters are imbalanced (though both games have issues with encounter balance), just that they're easy encounters.
... okay? I missed your point, I think. A lot seems to be passing me this conversation. As always, play what you like :)
 

there are many who didn't like 4e because of the homogenized structure of characters

<snip>

This was compounded by the seeming sameness of the majority of powers (hp loss plus effect).
I always found this very strange. After all, most fighter abilities in all editions of D&D are just hit point loss plus effect (sometimes just effects without hit point loss). And many spells have this character as well (again, some are just effects wtihout hit point loss).

The playtest fighter doesn't strike me as being markedly more versatile in these sorts of respects, in any event. Perhaps I've missed something, though.

The true differences between classes is evident in play and primarily garnered from the character's role but when only perusing the rules or discussing things from only a theoretical perspective, the differences are not as obvious
This may well be so. I can't easily internalise its truth, because the obvious differences in play between (say) (i) a fighter's "Tide of Iron" - single target weapon + push from a melee chassis, (ii) a wizard's "Thunderwave" - close burst thunder + push from a squishy, and (iii) a warlock's "Eyebite" - low damage with a Stealth enabler that might combine interestingly with Shadowwalk, seem pretty transparent to me. And when you look at the range of other at wills, and encounters, dailies, and utilities, the differences only increase.

D&D has been a successful game for a long time without being very well-balanced at all. While some of the rejection of 4e can reasonably be attributed to nostalgia, the usual resistance to change further abetted and amplified by the SRD/Pathfinder, and nerdrage, I can't reject out of hand the possibility that there's something else.

<snip>

It's also had really quite poor class balance for almost it's entire history (excepting 4e, of course). And, it's always had a system of rewarding frequent play with greater character power (experience). Put two together and you have an environment in which experienced players have a continual stream of new players to over-awe with their established characters and/or (particularly with 3e) their hard-won system mastery.

<snip>

I've heard the theory that the only thing 4e really goofed on was presentation. If it was a mistake, it was an understandable one. Being up-front with the mechanical commonalities of the classes made 4e much easier to learn.

<snip>

Unless, of course, the niche D&D had secretly carved out for itself was one of intellectual challenge and system-mastery rewards that thrived on the game taking some extra time and effort to learn and master. Thus the early criticism that 4e was 'dumbed down'
This is an intriguing theory.

I think there may be some truth to it in some cases, but I don't think it is generally true. So while I don't react to it as strongly as JamesonCourage has, I can see why someone might react in that way.

I think there is another dynamic going on related to these issues of transparency and "dumbing down", which Ron Edwards gets at in this passage:

A lot of game texts in this [simulationist] tradition reach for a fascinating ideal: that reading the book is actually the start of play, moving seamlessly into group play via character creation. Features of some texts like the NPC-to-PC explanatory style and GM-only sections are consistent with this ideal, as well as the otherwise-puzzling statement that character generation is a form of Director stance. It supports the central point of this essay, that the value of Simulationist play is prioritizing the group imaginative experience, to an extent that expands the very notion of "play" into acts that from Narrativist or Gamist perspectives are not play at all. . .

The GM problem, only partly solved by GM-only sections, is that it makes it very hard to write a coherent how-to explanation for scenario preparation and implementation. Putting this sort of information right out "in front of God and everybody" is counter-intuitive for some Simulationist-design authors, because it's getting behind the curtain at the metagame level. The experience of play, according to the basic goal, is supposed to minimize metagame, but preparation for play, from the GM's perspective, is necessarily metagame-heavy, and if reading the book is assumed to be actually beginning to play ... well, then a certain conflict of interest sets into the process.

The usual textual solution is to assume that the GM is already on the same page and to address him or her as a co-conspirator.​

Transparent character creation and encounter design rules, let alone transparent action resolution rules like 4e's power system, violate the simulationist canon that the metagame must be invisible when not completely absent. And I think this is what a lot of the hostility to 4e and its transparency is motivated by.

You also see it in descriptions of the rules as "textbooks" or as not being "good reads" - which seem to imply that a manual for playing a game should itself produce an aesthetic experience comparable to playing the game.

First, D&D doesn't historically (to my knowledge) say that it's a completely balanced game, and that everyone will contribute just as much during gameplay.
B/X, in talking about balance, are mostly concerned with the balance between risk and reward and the rate of PC advancement, rather than with balance across participants (see some quotes in this post).

But AD&D makes it fairly clear that there is intended to be a degree of balance between classes, although MUs will - by design- be weakest at low levels and strongest at high levels. Racial abilities and level limits are also talked about in terms of balance.
 

I always found this very strange. After all, most fighter abilities in all editions of D&D are just hit point loss plus effect (sometimes just effects without hit point loss). And many spells have this character as well (again, some are just effects wtihout hit point loss).

One of the claims for 4e superiority is "Look at all these different things I can do rather than swing/hit or swing/miss." If they're all just minor variations on the same thing, then that emperor is pretty much wearing no clothes.
 

One of the claims for 4e superiority is "Look at all these different things I can do rather than swing/hit or swing/miss." If they're all just minor variations on the same thing, then that emperor is pretty much wearing no clothes.

That's a bit of a mischaracterization though. It's not "look at these different things I can do", it's "look at these different things I can do whenever I want to do them" instead of playing mother may I with the DM.
 

Transparent character creation and encounter design rules, let alone transparent action resolution rules like 4e's power system, violate the simulationist canon that the metagame must be invisible when not completely absent. And I think this is what a lot of the hostility to 4e and its transparency is motivated by.

You also see it in descriptions of the rules as "textbooks" or as not being "good reads" - which seem to imply that a manual for playing a game should itself produce an aesthetic experience comparable to playing the game.
Yes, it should. As role-playing games take place primarily in the imagination, the writing of the books should inspire the imagination. The best way I can explain it is that the rules are like this:

stock-photo-rc-radio-control-car-without-body-shell-64450573.jpg


These are the rules with associated mechanics and a layer of prose to support them:

488503704_QJtdG-L.jpg
 

One of the claims for 4e superiority is "Look at all these different things I can do rather than swing/hit or swing/miss." If they're all just minor variations on the same thing, then that emperor is pretty much wearing no clothes.

That depends what you mean by minor variations. Take the humble five foot push. In 3.X that is a Bull Rush - a spectacularly bad idea for someone to try untrained under almost any circumstances - it (a) does no damage and (b) provokes an opportunity attack. Even Improved Bull Rush is generally a bad option - it means giving up your attack and so your chance to do damage. And costs a feat. Therefore that there are rules for Bull Rush in 3.X makes it almost always a bad option. Those bull rush rules aren't clothes. They are a ball and chain round the fighter's ankle. (2e IIRC had bull rushes that don't provoke - but remember the fighter is the character least able to give up their main attack).

4e on the other hand gives everyone the equivalent of Bull Rush if they want to give up their attack - as 2e did. But it also lets fighters select Tide of Iron - which allows them to push without giving up the chance to do damage. Yes the option to push isn't a new one. But it's no longer a bad one most of the time. And a bad option isn't a true option unless you want to count bouncing around the dungeon on a pogo stick as an option.

Yes, it should. As role-playing games take place primarily in the imagination, the writing of the books should inspire the imagination. The best way I can explain it is that the rules are like this:

[snip]

These are the rules with associated mechanics and a layer of prose to support them:

[snip]

Amusing. But a lean sports car really isn't what I see when I look at pre-4e AD&D/3.X rules. I see something like:

Battlewagon+with+zzap+gun+3.jpg


On the other hand 4e looks to me more like:

JA-P1800-left-door-and-hood-open.JPG


And the Battlewagon looks much more fun and characterful to me as long as I don't actually have to ride it.

Edit: Changed the picture for 4e from a sports car to the first volvo I could find with the bonnet open.
 
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