Bedrockgames
I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
I am glad to see HD and healing are on their radar as issues.
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Playtest Update
- Thread starter Wizards of the Coast
- Start date
Radiating Gnome
Adventurer
Really, while I don't care for some of the elements in the early playtest material, my only disappointment at this point is with the pace at which they're releasing fresh playtest material. End of summer? And I had been hoping to see something new at the end of this month.
It sounds like they're hearing a lot of the right stuff from the feedback, though. I'm especially interested in both stunts modules (tactical and narrative) and how well they play together.
-rg
It sounds like they're hearing a lot of the right stuff from the feedback, though. I'm especially interested in both stunts modules (tactical and narrative) and how well they play together.
-rg
How so? New combatants joining an ongoing fight are not going to be surprised but it makes no difference anyway because the fight is already ongoing and initiative has little relevance by that point.
Is that not the point of surprise?
Viking Bastard
Adventurer
Not surprising. Nobody seems to like it. I liked the HD mechanic when I read it, but in play it was just annoying.
Re the surprise rules (and sorry to keep banging on about this but it is such a simple rule that seems to work well and I don't like the idea of them doing away with it - what does "many people" mean anyway?), you could even incorporate things like elven perception by messing about with the penalty, say elves only take a -10 penalty to initiative when surprised. I also support the suggestion that characters that are not surprised can act with advantage (which would allow a rogue to make a sneak attack).
Bedrockgames
I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
Yep. There's not enough of it
I think mearls essentially gets the problem: for some there isn't enough, for others there is too much (and for another group it is just right). It is also an essential piece of the game. How healing works impacts the way the game plays and how people see the in game events. After being in a number of debates here on healing I think the best solution is to make it fully customizable (say three options for healing).
The issue that I had with Surprise (and what I mentioned in my survey feedback) is that 40-60% of the time it doesn't actually gain you anything you weren't already going to have.
People roll high on initiative all the time, and which means they go first in a combat. Probably half a PC's fights over his career he'll go first over his enemy. So all Surprise is giving you is a guarantee of going first, rather than rolling a die and 50% of the time getting the same exact thing. Surprise isn't a big deal. It's like a better version of Improved Initiative... which to me is extremely lacking for something that seems like it should be a rarer and more important situation.
I look at it this way with an example of a typical situation... a ranger tries to stealth up to a guard protecting a door, making skill checks to remain in hiding. He gets up to the guard and then attacks with Surprise, meaning he goes first since the guard's initiative drops by 20. But because the ranger had a +4 DEX mod and the guard had a -1... chances are good that even if the ranger just WALKED up to the guard in plain sight... he was going to roll higher on initiative anyway. So all the efforts to stealth up and get Surprise gained nothing. And thus the ranger is less likely to try something cool like sneaking up on a guard if there is barely any appreciable advantage to doing so. Why go through the effort? You aren't really getting rewarded for clever play, because you're getting something you already would have had more often than not.
If Surprise granted you Advantage in addition to the -20... or perhaps an additional action (like the traditional "Surprise round" used to give you)... then Surprise would actually be an additional benefit. Whereas right now to me it really is not.
People roll high on initiative all the time, and which means they go first in a combat. Probably half a PC's fights over his career he'll go first over his enemy. So all Surprise is giving you is a guarantee of going first, rather than rolling a die and 50% of the time getting the same exact thing. Surprise isn't a big deal. It's like a better version of Improved Initiative... which to me is extremely lacking for something that seems like it should be a rarer and more important situation.
I look at it this way with an example of a typical situation... a ranger tries to stealth up to a guard protecting a door, making skill checks to remain in hiding. He gets up to the guard and then attacks with Surprise, meaning he goes first since the guard's initiative drops by 20. But because the ranger had a +4 DEX mod and the guard had a -1... chances are good that even if the ranger just WALKED up to the guard in plain sight... he was going to roll higher on initiative anyway. So all the efforts to stealth up and get Surprise gained nothing. And thus the ranger is less likely to try something cool like sneaking up on a guard if there is barely any appreciable advantage to doing so. Why go through the effort? You aren't really getting rewarded for clever play, because you're getting something you already would have had more often than not.
If Surprise granted you Advantage in addition to the -20... or perhaps an additional action (like the traditional "Surprise round" used to give you)... then Surprise would actually be an additional benefit. Whereas right now to me it really is not.
Last edited:
r0gershrubber
First Post
It seems like most people that like the -20 agree that surprise should come with advantage in some way. If that's the case, the real problem is not the -20 aspect, but the lack of advantage.
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