D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[SKyOdin]

Aragorn's healing abilities can easily be spun 3 ways - healing spells, herbalism and mundane healing skills, and divine providence (laying on of hands). The herbalism is most strongly suggested, or would be, if he didn't also chant and call to the afflicted as if casting a ritual (spell).

Since when were there spellcasters in Middle Earth who used overt magical rituals? Even Gandalf does no such thing, ever. All of the magic he uses is either so subtle that it is near invisible, or a quick and immediate application of his power without much overt casting. Most of all, he simply applies his knowledge and wisdom. Outside of the great wizards, there are no clear "mages" at all in the world of Middle Earth. Lord of the Rings doesn't have spells.

And you're right, none of them are segregated out. Yet there are characters who don't seem to be able to do it while others can - perhaps Aragorn is multiclassed or he's gotten high enough in level as a 1e ranger to be able to do it. Elves seem to be able to work magic with lots of the crafts they make. Again, this isn't called out as separate because they don't seem to understand the hobbits' questions about magic as something separate. It's just part of what and who they are. That's one of the reasons a number of different methods in games might model it and picking the "right" one is a question of art and interpretation.

See, I would say that because they aren't actually divine, it's silly to call them demigods. In the terms of Deities and Demigods from 1e, they're not gods nor demigods. They're heroes. That covers a lot of ground, by the way from the relatively mundane Arthurian knights to the heroes of the Finnish Kalevala.

Okay, these paragraphs demonstrate where some of the disconnect comes from. Why the heck are you talking about Aragorn as if he needed to be multiclassed?! I understand that you are trying to make an analogy, but you are making so many presumptions that it is making my head spin. Ultimately, trying to apply D&D logic about classes and magic to anything non-D&D is just silly. Aragorn doesn't have a class. LotR was written decades before the idea of class was even invented.

Furthermore, assuming that he would need to multiclass in order to have healing abilities means that you are already presupposing D&D assumptions about magic and class organization, rather than looking at what is actually going on.

Similarly, saying that D&D heroes are not on par with demigods because the Deities and Demigods book says so is fairly circular, insular logic. You say that they are "heroes", but for most of human history, the terms "hero" and "demigod" were practically synonyms. To be honest, the Deities and Demigods' definitions of divinity, along with most traditional D&D definitions of such, are lousy. No construction of religion in D&D is remotely based on real world religion and beliefs, and most are rather stupid, even within the context of D&D itself.

In most real world polytheistic beliefs, the divide between mortal and divine was awfully thin. The children of gods could be perfectly normal mortals, and exemplary humans could become gods. Too much of D&D religion overly conflates the polytheistic concept of gods with the monotheistic concept of God. In polytheistic terms, being a god isn't a big deal, since there are millions of them anyways, many of whom are vulnerable to being harmed or killed by mortals.

And you've ignored the fact that non-superhuman, martial protagonists did exist in some of the literature D&D was based upon. I'm not arguing anything else, so I'm not sure what the rest of this post is addressing... because I never claimed it's sources had no mythic or supernatural martial protagonists just that it also had some that weren't.

I was mostly responding to your argument earlier in the thread that martial heroes need magical justification in order to do supernatural things. I was just responding that such arbitrary definitions between "mundane" and "magical" are a product of D&D, and one that doesn't serve a useful purpose.

I think there is a good reason to differentiate "supernatural" from "magic".

Being supernatural informs other aspects of your nature and behavior. If you can smash an ogre dead with a thrown hammer, you're presumably exceptionally strong at arm wrestling too. If you strike your foes unerringly with supernatural agility and accuracy, you could easily toss pizzas and juggle tomatoes to amaze your friends during your dayjob. It doesn't matter whether it's strictly supernatural, like Samson's supernatural gift of strength from God, or mundanely extraordinary; it's innate for most intents and purposes.

I think you are conflating "supernatural" with "superhuman". Being superhuman doesn't require supernatural explanation in a fantasy universe. Something can be superhuman with no outside supernatural explanation.

Whereas magic is just a shortcut. For a shining moment, you obliterate a mob with a fireball and then you're just ordinary Joe Shmoe. (Gandalf is definitely both supernatural and magic).

As I talked about above, there is no basis for ascribing D&Dish defintions of spell-casting or magic to Gandalf. By your definition, he is all supernatural, no magic.

This is why wuxia's tree running kinda nags me as more mythic/magical, because you don't see those same wuxia warriors being consistently acrobatic in other contexts like some sort of Spiderman. It's almost as if denying gravity is only "turned on" during combat, which seems more like magic in the moment than innately supernatural.

I think you are just missing the point of those tree-running scenes. Those are just there to demonstrate the ability and skill of the characters. The implication is that they are just that good. Furthermore, wuxia and anime doen't presuppose that supernatural explanations are required to perform superhuman feats. Mere training, physical conditioning, spiritual development, and skill are sufficient to transform a wimpy boy into a warrior that can walk on water and lift 20-ton boulders.

 

[Underman]

I think you are conflating "supernatural" with "superhuman". Being superhuman doesn't require supernatural explanation in a fantasy universe. Something can be superhuman with no outside supernatural explanation.

Yes, that why I wrote in the quote you referenced that I was including both supernatural and extraordinary in the same category of "supernatural". As in literally, super-natural. Still natural to that fantasy world, but superbly so, like Superman.

As I talked about above, there is no basis for ascribing D&Dish defintions of spell-casting or magic to Gandalf. By your definition, he is all supernatural, no magic.

As I wrote in the post you referenced, I believe that Gandalf is both supernatural (being Maiar) as well as magical, so I don't understand where you're coming from that Gandalf is "no magic".

Edit: To clarify, of course, LoTR doesn't have a magic system like D&D. Apparently, D&D magic was inspired by Jack Vance novels. But then D&D expanded into sorcery, warlock pacts, etc. Talking exclusively about LoTR's magic system doesn't have a lot of relevance to me regarding a standard D&D campaign.

I think you are just missing the point of those tree-running scenes. Those are just there to demonstrate the ability and skill of the characters. The implication is that they are just that good. Furthermore, wuxia and anime doen't presuppose that supernatural explanations are required to perform superhuman feats. Mere training, physical conditioning, spiritual development, and skill are sufficient to transform a wimpy boy into a warrior that can walk on water and lift 20-ton boulders.

I don't think I'm missing the point. I get that. My point is that wuxia treetop running fails to suspend my disbelief that they are superhuman and not mythic. I know they're trying to sell me on the superhuman, but I just don't buy it, personally. I take it with a grain of salt like other mythic qualities. The reason I feel that way is because its being shown to me as magic of the moment without any other implications to their daily lives.

 

[chaochou]

Going into the topic of whether or not D&D heroes can be based on the likes of Hercules and other mythological demi-gods, it is worth pointing out that the monsters they fought (the Hydra, the Minotaur, Cerberus, the Chimera, etc.) were all demigods as well.

I think it's also worth pointing out, if we're using Greek myth as the analogy, that casters are accorded powers reserved solely for Gods. Only Zeus can throw lightning bolts, only the gods can polymorph. Yet casters are given these abilities at trivially low levels.

It's the double standard again - fighters aren't demigods so can't possibly be allowed to perform miraculous tasks like Heracles, but casters can not only recreate the powers of Zeus, Apollo or Poseidon but switch between them.

I'd accept the idea that fighters can't be demigods like Heracles until 16th level in a game in which wizards gained access to 3rd level spells at 16th level.

 

[Umbran]

Only Zeus can throw lightning bolts, only the gods can polymorph. Yet casters are given these abilities at trivially low levels.

What the wizard does is the same as what Zeus does...

So, Zeus throws 5d6 lightning bolts, averaging 17.5 damage.

Zeus, apparently, is a wimp. Or, alternatively, we are accidentally conflating quality (lightning!) with quantity (#d6) when considering power. The wizard may be qualitatively like Zeus, but not quantitatively.

 

[MarkB]

It seems like what we could do with is a refined version of 4e's Paragon Paths. Once a fighter reaches the top end of 'heroic' level, he chooses a path that can take him beyond everyday skills. It could consist of borderline-mundane things like near-mystical fighting styles or extreme tactical savvy, or the embracing of explicitly magical powers, or the acquisition of supernatural traits, or a greater destiny that guides his hand and turns chance in his favour.

Provide enough choices and you can support most styles of play. They could even share most of the mechanics, just providing their own spin on things along with a few specialised options.

 

[SKyOdin]

A wizard needs magic to bend the world. A fighter doesn't need magic to bend your nose into your face - though it can certainly help.

The wizard - and the cleric, for all that - take the realistic physics of our world and twist them sideways. I'm cool with that. But it doesn't mean everyone has to be able to do such things; most people are grounded in reality, and that includes low-mid level fighters.

Lan-"rolled up in 1984 and a fighter ever since"-efan

Think of it, and other elements of design for a fantasy world in D&D, as exception-based design. The baseline is pseudo-history normal. Magic forms the primary basis for exception. Characters, even wizards, are subject to a common impression of reality in general, save where mainly magic justifies the exceptions.

The idea that everything corresponds to real-world physics except when magic intervenes is completely ludicrous in the context of D&D, though. D&D worlds involve giants, dragons, beholders, undead, divine intervention, and multiple alternate planes of existence which are readily accessible. How can you possibly say that the rules of reality in a D&D world compare to ones in our world? I can't accidentally stumble into an alternate universe in my daily life, yet a D&D character can. I can't jump 30 feet into the air, but who is to say that a D&D character can't?

 

[SKyOdin]

What the wizard does is the same as what Zeus does...

So, Zeus throws 5d6 lightning bolts, averaging 17.5 damage.

Zeus, apparently, is a wimp. Or, alternatively, we are accidentally conflating quality (lightning!) with quantity (#d6) when considering power. The wizard may be qualitatively like Zeus, but not quantitatively.

Can you name a character from mythology who can throw lightning bolts or fireballs and isn't a god?

 

[Salamandyr]

Can you name a character from mythology who can throw lightning bolts or fireballs and isn't a god?

Tim, from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

EDIT: Nevermind, you said mythology. For some reason I read "fantasy".

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I think it's also worth pointing out, if we're using Greek myth as the analogy, that casters are accorded powers reserved solely for Gods. Only Zeus can throw lightning bolts, only the gods can polymorph. Yet casters are given these abilities at trivially low levels.

It's the double standard again - fighters aren't demigods so can't possibly be allowed to perform miraculous tasks like Heracles, but casters can not only recreate the powers of Zeus, Apollo or Poseidon but switch between them.

I'd accept the idea that fighters can't be demigods like Heracles until 16th level in a game in which wizards gained access to 3rd level spells at 16th level.

Yes. And that's also the problem with the pilot analogy. If we want to equate "pilot" with "spellcaster," then why is it this deal where once the spellcaster crosses some particular threshold (Nth level wizard) that suddenly he can do so much so easily? Pilots don't blink their eyes and transport the whole plane from London to New York.

It's fine to have a system (or campaign within a system) where fighters stick to the mundane and spell casters twist reality, but only if the spell casters twisting reality is hard. It takes times, it takes risks, it cost money, they must mediate constantly to stay in the right frame of mind, interrupting is dangerous, etc. Something.


I've been rereading some of the Lord Darcy series recently. It's a good example of the split. Darcy is physically capable (though also clever in a D&D roguish way, thus the "Batman" issue), while his sidekick Sean is a master magician with a specialty in forensic wizardy. Sean can twist reality all over the place, often on demand (no spells per day for him), and Darcy can't at all. Yet, off the top of my head, here are some of the limits:

• The really powerful magic takes time, sometimes hours or even all night long.
• Some spells interfere with other spells operating, and thus require an assistant.
• The laws of magic require specific props and practices--you need a sharp knife as a symbol when you want the magic to symbolically sever something, for example.
• Certain kinds of spells don't work well together because of concentration. A master magican can be "invisible" and "levitate," but is taking his life in his hands to levitate very high while invisible.
• Whole swaths of magic are off-limits to other specialists, either due to the necessary "talent" being parsed out thinly or other reasons. Notably, certain kinds of "black magic" destroy other spells.
• A master magician must take a sabbatical for a week or two every year, or his "power will desert him."

Ideally, the power of the spells in D&D would scale with the limits the group was willing to accept, and only with those limits.

 

[Tony Vargas]

And here it gets into the murky waters of just what various players find engaging in the game. Me, I'm happy if my fighter has a sword and a chance to swing it to kill things now and then; I can pretty much do without all the feats and powers and whatnot that I usually just forget anyway, and I'll otherwise dive in to the story as it seems fitting - just because I'm a "dumb fighter" doesn't mean I have nothing to say.

That's nice. Nothing stops you from ignoring (or forgetting) options that could be included for those who want a more complex fighter, though.

For instance, a 'default' fighter that's fairly straightforward and requires few decisions beyond choosing the class itself is perfectly workable within a more complex structure. Those wanting complexity just get options that they can swap in for the defaults.

The wizard - and the cleric, for all that - take the realistic physics of our world and twist them sideways. I'm cool with that. But it doesn't mean everyone has to be able to do such things; most people are grounded in reality, and that includes low-mid level fighters.

The 'reality' of a fantasy setting is simply different from what we modern peoples perceive as reality. Fighter's aren't going to be throwing balls of fire, but they most certainly should be performing superhuman feats, even if they're known to be scientifically 'impossible' today.