When does D&D stop being D&D?

[Nagol]

I own a lot of game systems. I have run many of them and will run more in the future. For any prospective game, I choose the system I think will give me the closest match to the feel I am looking for. Often, this is D&D.

D&D stops being D&D when I prefer to turn to a different game system (or previous edition) for a game with genre, theme, and trappings that I associate with D&D play.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

A lot of people talk about mechanics when identifying "what is D&D". That's OK, I suppose, as certainly there are iconic mechanics.

I'm of the mind that anything that possesses the "Soul of D&D" can be seen as D&D, regardless of mechanics (or even name or source of origin). But that's using D&D as a generic term for a genre, rather than D&D(tm), and I'm sure some will quibble with that.

 

[pemerton]

the Dungeon as explained by you is a great piece of D&D. I agree, and I often see those that try to remove it (in favor of 98% Interaction or some such) and then complain that D&D doesn't work for them. Those are the people that I think would be better served with another, just as good, but different, RPG.

What about people who play D&D (as in, use D&D rulebooks and mechanics) and aren't playing dungeons and aren't complaining that D&D doesn't work for them?

 

[pemerton]

I'm of the mind that anything that possesses the "Soul of D&D" can be seen as D&D, regardless of mechanics (or even name or source of origin).

I've run more D&D modules using Rolemaster than D&D mechanics. And I've run more B/X and 3E modules using 4e than using either of those versions. I'm not sure if that means 4e and RM are really D&D, or that I'm taking D&D stuff and "de-D&Ding" it.

 

[delericho]

What about people who play D&D (as in, use D&D rulebooks and mechanics) and aren't playing dungeons and aren't complaining that D&D doesn't work for them?

Indeed. My current D&D campaign is more than a year old, is most certainly a D&D (specifically 3e Eberron) campaign, and yet I can't recall the last time they ventured into anything that would count as a dungeon. It's not that we don't like dungeons; they just haven't really come up.

And we're quite happy with the campaign, the system, etc.

 

[Mercule]

What about people who play D&D (as in, use D&D rulebooks and mechanics) and aren't playing dungeons and aren't complaining that D&D doesn't work for them?

I don't think the standard dungeon has ever been an anchor to my games (included, yes, but not the focus). Still, there has always been something to explore. In some cases, that was sneaking into the lord's castle. In others, it was an island with an old manor on it. In still others, it was a neighboring city in which the PCs had to locate a contact. Sure, we had abandoned tombs, crypts, etc. but my adventures have always been focused on human (or other PC race) enemies as the main plot -- although they often had vampires, liches, demons, devils, or dragons pulling the strings or in disguise.

I think there's something of a common thread, though. In D&D, you spend a lot of time exploring alien territory. That may not be unique to D&D, and it may not be pure, but the system does (and, IMO, should) encourage it. I would never say that anyone who was in a politically-focused game using the D&D rules wasn't playing D&D. Depending on just how political they were, I might question whether D&D was the best system for their game. I would also be concerned if WotC started saying they wanted to support WoD style politicking in D&D Next. I'm all for skill systems that provide some framework, but that shouldn't be a key offering and shouldn't take much time away from the "killing things and taking their stuff" mechanical refinement.

 

[Celestian]

At 3e the game because less like D&D that I was prepared to play. I cannot really name specific things that make it "not D&D" but a few things stand out to me. DCs, saves and multi-classing. All those things in 3e really changed the game dramatically.

Ascending AC, BaB and spontaneous spell conversion (cleric convert a non-heal to a heal spell) were good changes. OGL, rocked. Allowed us to get OSRIC and S&W.

4e was even more dramatically different. Infact I really do not think it was D&D at all. It was a new game, much like a board game, that had a D&D label on it.

I have played since the red box, most of my time in AD&D. I still play AD&D and will probably continue to play AD&D. I have added many of the things I liked from the other versions to my game.

I cannot really say if 5e will draw me and my group in but we will look at it. Steal what we like if there is anything there but if all they do is mash 3e+4e it will not be something we use.

I do not expect them to cater to me. I am just happy they did the 1e book reprints and hope that is a sign they are planning to continue supporting (at least print wise) some of the older editions going forward.

So for me? D&D stopped being D&D at 4e but it did not stop me from playing D&D.

 

[dagger]

So for me? D&D stopped being D&D at 4e but it did not stop me from playing D&D.

I am going with this except for me it was Book of Nine Swords that it stopped being D&D for me, but we did play 4e for about 18 months. Thankfully I only bought a PHB during that time and a few months of DDI for the character generator.

 

[Manbearcat]

I've DMed a Basic Campaign - DnD.
I've DMed a 2e standard campaign with Vancian casters - DnD.
I've DMed a 2e campaign via Skills and Powers with spell points, obnoxious crit tables and absurd house rules - DnD.
I've DMed 2e Dark Sun - DnD.
I've DMed 2e Planescape - DnD.
I've DMed 2e Ravenloft - DnD.
I've DMed 3e RaW - DnD.
I've DMed 3e Planescape - DnD.
I've DMed 3.5 with a thousand and one UA rules and Bo9S - DnD.
I've DMed 4.0 RaW - DnD.
I've DMed 4.0 with house rules to PC build to tailor for 2 people - DnD.

I have decades of refined opinions on what mechanics I felt created the best game from behind the screen. I have decades of refined opinions on what PC build rules provide the best framework for my players favored archetypes. I have all sorts of opinions. But curiously, none of these opinions on mechanics have been tethered to some notion of what DnD is. This is likely because I am much less Hindu than most. I have no problem slaughtering any mechanical cow and eating it with bacon and blue cheese so long as I have wizards, warriors, swords, sorcery, thieves, assassins, fallen empires, ancient ruins, dragons, beholders, giants, orcs, goblins, mind-flayers, demons, devils, verifiable Gods, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes...and on and on. Give me a standard setting that is some sordid marriage of feel of American Frontier, Feudal Europe, Mongol-ruled Eastern Asia...and a few high fantasy oddities. Whether I have THAC0 or BaB, flat math or swingy, poorly QCed math...Vancian, Spell Points, Saving Throws, Defenses. Give me 4 little boys (masquerading as grown men) at a table with dice, books, and DM screen with fiddly bits on it and its all DnD. Some mechanics work specifically toward my favored ends/tastes better than others...but its all DnD.

I have to admit, I find most of what I read in these type of threads extraordinarily distasteful at best and willful or ignorant provocation at worst. Grognards, such as myself, do not own this brand nor do those new to the hobby with 4e.

 

[billd91]

Give me 4 little boys (masquerading as grown men) at a table with dice, books, and DM screen with fiddly bits on it and its all DnD.

Yeah, see, this grognard can't get behind that definition. I can't really tell the difference if you're playing Runequest, Rolemaster, D&D, Traveller, Star Frontiers, Boot Hill, Gamma World, Heroic Legends, Champions, Mutants and Masterminds, or any number of other games out there. There needs to be something more for me to say it's D&D.

I may quibble around the edges with a lot of other posts on what I consider to be essentials of D&D, but I think a lot of the discussion is right on the money. There are things about D&D that set it apart from other games and we should set it apart from other games both for D&D's long-term health and the health of those other games.