D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[Minigiant]

I say

Screw it.
The mundane fighter gets bonuses to ability scores every X levels after a certain point and become as powerful as the monsters they once fought.

Then have a mythic warrior that does the near supernatural actions.

THEN have plenty of templates that can be paid in good and/XP to get divine blood, magic fighting, super speed, troop arms, and instructions on how to craft Swords of Omens.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Nothing wrong with any of this, but where does Beowulf fit in? Or Lancelot (who remains tough, even after his fall)? Or Gawaine?

I don't know yet, the list isn't complete.

Did Lancelot fight against Meteor Swarming Wizards and other Paragon Tier like creatures? He may never have quite made it to Paragon, since the mythical world he existed in wasn't really that strong.

Beowulf certainly did. He is a mythical hero that just is mythical without an attempt to explain it, I think. That's just what heroes of legend could do. It may be a type of character that some D&D players just cannot accept in their campaigns, there games are "not that" mythical.

Hmm.
"Hero of Legends": You have tapped into an inner power that only few before or after you will ever reach, giving you strength, stamina and toughness that just seems impossible. You will become the stuff of legends, someone to be remembered centuries or millenia after you reached the zenith of your power - some may downplay your achievements, or believe them exaggerations or even outright fabrications, stories for children or easily impresssed - but the legends of you will keep being told despite - or maybe in spite - of the doubters.

Hmm. Almost sound like an Epic Destiny rather than a Paragon Path. Oops. But Beowulf may indeed be epic...

By the way, I just have to think of another Paragon Destiny - The Witcher. "Alchemical Altered":

• As a Fighter, you consumed countless of potions, to recover from grivious injuries taken, to boost your strength and stamina - and something happened. Maybe it was the last batch of healing potions you bought for a special price, maybe it was just the sum of all that magic contained in all the potions you drank - but your body has absorbed magical energy, and you can feel it, and use it. You have gained a new sense of danger, boosting your reflexes, and you feel stronger than ever.
• You joined a cult that uses his a special alchemical solution to gain superior power. The process is dangerous - lesser people couldn't survive it or end up crippled or insane, but you already had proven your physical fortitude in countless of battles - the solution did its work, and now you develop heightened senses and reflexes, and become stronger and resilient.

 

[Neonchameleon]

My question, and I'm not claiming there is or isn't a "right" answer is... would these different "paragon paths" have a mechanical effect?? Or are they just window dressing for a single classes mechanics?

Both? Some will be window dressing for archetypal fighters (who are big strong and tough) and others like the fey will have mechanical effects. And if you're playing 4e a third category will be expressed through the selection of powers rather than themself having a direct effect.

If they want to keep the 4E audience, and this is the route chosen, then they'd better put the "mythic fighter" class and the "regular fighter" class in game from the get go.

Honestly I don't think that 4e players all require mythic fighters as long as fighters are (a) fun and (b) able to keep up with wizards. The problem is that big, solid, and hitty needs to be mythic in order to keep up with wizards.

If the fighter is a spam class (2e, 3e) or worse yet barely more competent at combat than an unbuffed cleric who is spending his healing on others and contributes little more than a warm body to the other two pillars (1e pre-Unearthed Arcana) then the 4e players will revolt.

If the fighter turns out to be near-mundane in the way Indiana Jones is near-mundane then I don't think we'll have a problem from the 4e side. Although I think the old school players will complain - playing Indy would be far too complex for a simple fighter.

If you want simple you either need utterly lethal (seriously, start with two attacks/round) or a lot larger than life.

Simple, mundane, effective. Pick two. And 4e players are not compromising on effective.

The reason it's pick two is that to take things on above your weight class (as you need to if you are mundane) you need to work hard. And preferably smart.

Poison? Or an antidote; to the insidious poison of power creep in the game and quasi-magical wahoo for non-magical classes?

If you want to deal with power creep, take the wizard and feed it into a woodchipper. Then burn the parts, and scatter the ashes. The insidious poison of power creep has been benefitting wizards ever since D&D started. Go back to the Illusionist as a class and have the Evoker as a separate class.

Hyperbolic, yes; but your definition puts me in the "poison" category (I think fighters in 5e core need to be bog simple "hit it till it's dead" characters that anyone can pick up and play in a heartbeat) and that does tee me off.

Simple. Effective. Mundane. Pick two. If the fighter is to be effective at combat he needs to either be tricky or powerful.

No one is saying that there shouldn't be a "hit it til it's dead" class. That is a purpose of the mythic fighter. The one who can think with his muscles rather than his brains. In order to be a mundane fighter in a magical world, the fighter needs to think his way into levelling the playing field. And that takes being tricksy rather than hitting things until they die. (I'd argue this role is better served by a rogue variant).

No other class can really fill that simple entry-level role.

Nonsense. A simple blast mage works. 4e has a simple entry-level blast mage (the Elementalist Sorceror). There's another class that can fill that role.

Also, I'd like there to be at least one class (but preferably, all of them) where I as player don't have to remember powers or look at skill lists etc. - I can just role-play the character as entertainingly as I can, roll some dice when I have to, and let the DM tell me what happens.

How does "Single target firebolt" and "Fireburst" as your two spells sound? Oh, and Affect Normal Fires. Absolutely nothing that doesn't fit your criteria.

I have to ask - and I can't quite believe I'm about to type this - how can you possibly balance those in the same game? I don't think you can, thus either one has to accept imbalance in the game or one of those classes has to go.

By making the mundane fighter tricksy. Seriously tricksy. You end up with the mythic fighter's Secutor to the mundane fighter's Retiarius. Or the mundane fighter's Batman.

It's probably easier to balance the mythic vs mundane fighter than the fighter vs the wizard. But in order to be both simple and effective you need sufficient brute force that a simple brute force approach works. You absolutely can not do that in a world with ogres and dragons without making the fighter more than mundane. Or level capping him. Or making him a ball of death that would make a 2e dart master wince.

 

[pemerton]

I don't know yet, the list isn't complete.

<snip>

"Hero of Legends": You have tapped into an inner power that only few before or after you will ever reach, giving you strength, stamina and toughness that just seems impossible. You will become the stuff of legends, someone to be remembered centuries or millenia after you reached the zenith of your power - some may downplay your achievements, or believe them exaggerations or even outright fabrications, stories for children or easily impresssed - but the legends of you will keep being told despite - or maybe in spite - of the doubters.

Hmm. Almost sound like an Epic Destiny rather than a Paragon Path. Oops. But Beowulf may indeed be epic...

Now that's what I'm talking about!

 

[Underman]

"Hero of Legends": You have tapped into an inner power that only few before or after you will ever reach, giving you strength, stamina and toughness that just seems impossible. You will become the stuff of legends, someone to be remembered centuries or millenia after you reached the zenith of your power - some may downplay your achievements, or believe them exaggerations or even outright fabrications, stories for children or easily impresssed - but the legends of you will keep being told despite - or maybe in spite - of the doubters.

Hmm. Almost sound like an Epic Destiny rather than a Paragon Path. Oops. But Beowulf may indeed be epic...

There is one little wrinkle with the destiny warrior (not to disparage your post, because I suggested something similar some pages back). The PC gains the Paragon path or theme or whatever and then dies in the next adventure. Woink! The title of "Hero of Legends" gets retconned. Seems a bit awkward.

How about a Mighty Soul fighter, combo of Deva, born hero and fate warrior?

Since the dawn of time, the world has become a truly dangerous place, infiltrated by demons and aberrations from dark lands, magic has been both a force of hope and despair, insert more cliches, bla bla.

Legend and rumours has it that, in every land, some are born to fight the tide of darkness. It is a destiny towards unknown ends, but the calling is clear. It may be a cycle that the gods had set in motion against supernatural taints and arcane menaces.

Sages speculate that these mighty souls are spirits of past fighters reborn again and again. Perhaps it was the will of great warriors slain in the First Age. Perhaps it is the underworld that thrusts these souls back to the mortal realm. In any case, some of these fighting men and women believe their spirit was forged like an alloy of lifetimes of combat expertise and shadow memories and mayhaps ancient powers untold.

Mechanically, I'd suggest that Mighty Soul Fighters:
- have some amount of anti-magic resistance; as they are like the white blood cells of the land's immune system against supernatural and magic, and they cannot multiclass as spellcasters
- can be of any alignment as long as they're intentionally (ie., good) or unintentionally (neutral or evil) adventuring against evil
- lose most of their hit points (ie., the fate/luck/destiny portion of hit points) when they retire from adventuring or otherwise fail their calling

 

[Minigiant]

I think the discussion is better suited to ask:

When/At what level does each class break the reality barrier?

1st? 5th? 10th? 15th? 20th? 21st? Never?

Of course magical classes like the cleric and wizard are supernatural at level 1.

But look at the other classes.

The ranger traditionally got magic around the 5th level or none at all.

Should the paladin start as supernatural warrior at level 1? Or should it be a glorified fighter who exalts/awakens at the 5th level?

And most importantly...

Should the fighter remained bound to reality and not break fantasy until epic. Then the game tailor to make such a character a viable, intelligent, and sensible choice?

OR

Should the fighter hit supernatural abilities at a non epic level like 10 or 15?

OR

Should there be a 20 levels of mundane fighter class and a 5-20 levels of supernatural fighter class?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I liked 4E 3 tiers, put at level 1, 11 and 21 as a general rule. But some classes bring inherent magical "baggage". The Ranger could be a class that can wait till level 11, but Paladin could start at Level 1 or Level 5 or so.

4E did a lot of "front-loading" - classes had fully actualized class features at 1st level and the rest was all just powers. In 4E, Lay on Hands is an integral part of the Paladin class and "needs" to be there at level 1, but I don't think that's an absolute necessity -one could give him such abilities later. But he needs some abilities that make him feel Paladin at level 1, otherwise Paladin doesn't sound like a core class. I don't really see many non-magical abilities in the Paladin's repertoire that make him "Paladiny". At best, Mounted Combat perhaps. For the Ranger, it seems easier - light agile warrior that feels at home in the wilderness. You only need stuff like tracking, the ability to use bows (and maybe two weapons, if you must) and maybe some movement and stealth tricks.

 

[Manbearcat]

Given what we know:

- Themes are 3 feat-delivery systems. They provide feats at levels 1, 3, 5. They can narrow your focus or widen your breadth.

Given what we (I?) think we (I?) know:

- Levels go up to 20?
- Advanced Themes are 6 feat-delivery systems for higher level characters that provide access to complex archetypes (bladesinger and dwarven defender were mentioned) outside of the class system?
- Feats are granted in 5 level-3 feat groupings that work like tiers (levels 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15, 16, 18, 20) granting characters 12 total feats. Thus you could have 4 Themes or 2 Themes and an Advanced Theme.

Given what we've heard:

- Fighters may get access to more themes (feats). This would make this portion of their design considerations somewhat 3rd editionish.

Specuation:

- Perhaps fighters getting more access to Themes/Feats/a secondary Advanced Theme would open up the design space to narrow their scope to the more mundane Martial Weaponmaster, Defender, Soldier, Slayer (etc) as the character evolves...or to broaden it with two Advanced Themes for Mythic, Heroes of Legends, Beowulfian, etc type capabilities if this is the archetype you seek. Other classes wouldn't have access to this design space if only fighters get more Themes/Feats/a secondary Advanced Theme.

This of course presupposes that they get the power levels, capabilities and feel correct and that this archetype's availability in the core does not offend some gamers' sensibilities...which may be a bridge too far.

 

[Mallus]

Why do some people consider 10th level fighters to be "mundane", ie normal people?

Mind you, I'm not criticizing anyone's play style preferences. I'm asking from a lit crit./close reading perspective.

In the edition I started with --and thus, the a priori category through which I view all things D&D-- a 10th fighter level has an average of 62 HP. Add in some CON bonus and we're up to around 80 HP. Their saving throws are equally impressive; a 50% or better in every category (without any magical items).

This is a person who can take the maximum damage from either a 100' fall off of a cliff or a fireball cast by 10th level magic-user (level title - Necromancer!) and still come at you with a sword. If they took average damage from those unfortunate events, they could likely survive two of them in rapid succession.

This qualifies as 'mundane'?

Again, I'm not criticizes preferences, I'm merely trying to give the text an accurate reading. To my mind, the implication has always been that leveling in D&D invariably means approaching demigod status. Regardless of how it's addressed in the fiction.

The only way to prevent this is to not reach higher levels.

 

[Underman]

Why do some people consider 10th level fighters to be "mundane", ie normal people?

I think we're differentiating between normal vs mundane vs supernatural/supernormal.

"Mundane" just means non-magical but doesn't mean normal.

I can get a sense of that from D&D Next Playtest which discusses max ability score suggestions for normal people vs "adventurers" (ie., mundane but supernormal abilities scores) vs "monsters and divine beings". According to that sense of things, a mythic fighter is more akin to a monster or divine than a normal person or adventurer.