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Five-Minute Workday Article

My only concern with the article is mearls seems to be falling into the trap of building adventures around encounters, which plagued 3e in my opinion (whether this was an issue in 4e I dont know). I do like that they are letting wizards breath once again, but reviewing the article it seems to me he is talking about structuring the game around x number encounters per day. This is why all those other balancing factors are so important and cant be overlooked. Resource management is one factor among many that have the built in trade off of being a wizard work. Focus too much on just resource management and the gm is forced to have x number encounters per day as his balancing tool. So while I am glad to see that they seem to get where many of us who complained about 4e are coming from, the article does raise some concerns I think.
 

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keterys

First Post
It was actually a really obvious problem in the computer games, if you've played those. Though UI problems in, say, Pool of Radiance, made it more _painful_ to rememorize spells so it was slightly less obvious.

So, I mean, it's certainly existed for a long time.

I think it's slightly more problematic when it's disproportionately effective for some characters and not others. Ie, if the fighter and rogue gets almost nothing from resting, and the wizard and cleric get almost everything...

This also is a problem from the perspective of a DM having NPCs to fight against PCs. An NPC fighter expected to last only a couple rounds of combat is _far_ less powerful than an NPC wizard expected to last those same couple rounds. This was particularly obvious in 3e's CR system.
 

TO EVERY PLAYER WHO HAS THUS FAR SAID THAT UNLESS THIS '5 MINUTE WORKDAY' ISSUE GETS SOLVED MECHANICALLY BY WOTC, THEY WILL NOT MAKE THE SWITCH TO 5E...

Whatever rules and pacing ideas you instituted in your current D&D edition of choice to combat this same exact problem (which has existed in every edition of D&D up to this point whether you want to admit it or not)...

...use that for 5E.

There ya go. You don't have to "do more work", because you've already done it. Just port it over.

4E minimizes the problem at a system level, by reducing the impact of the Daily nova and equalizing daily resources across all (non-essentials)classes. 5E appears to offer neither.

I don't have to institute anything. Your solution falls flat.

My solution to non-4E editions was to play 4E instead. That looks like my solution for 5E as well.
 

Iosue

Legend
The problem with this is that the encounter is a natural unit of play for many playstyles. (Ie all those based on strong scene framing.) Whereas "the day" is an arbitrary unit of ingame time - unless you change it in the sort of way that [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=71811]Badapple[/MENTION] have talked about.
The converse of what you say is equally true. The day is a natural unit of play for many playstyles, whereas designing the game around encounters can make them feel artificial and contrived. The goal, then, is to provide malleable rules that can fit both sides.

It is not unusual, even in 4e, for a DM to plan out certain points where the PCs can take a rest (whether they are used or not being generally up to the players). The same could then be done in 5e. The DM takes their daily budget of XP, and plans out their scenes. A skirmish here, some puzzle or trap there, topped off with a mini-Boss. It's really no different from 4e now, except now you have a further meta-framing device to help design your stories.

For me, at least, there seems to be an element of railroading in mandating a precise number of rounds of combat between rests. Under this approach, how do the players get to shape what happens in the gameworld?
I don't see where there's any railroading, or any mandating a precise number of rounds. I think that's akin to someone saying that all encounters must be balanced in 4e. All Mearls is talking about is a tool to gauge how much a party might have to face before taking a rest. And DMs are entirely free to ignore it. Or they can always keep their adventure days under budget, so the PCs never have to rest. Or they can overbudget, so that the players are constantly having to rest, if that's the kind of game they dig.
 

Dark Mistress

First Post
Let me first say I am not saying the 15min adventuring day is not a problem for some people. It has never really been a problem for me and my group though. Fairly recently I got involved with a second group and i was running. The group was 6 players, 2 that was vets to my old group as well and was use to how we played and 4 new people. The new players where all experienced players but I found out later the games they had played in there was never any downside to resting. If they stopped mid dungeon and went and rested when they came back the monster in the 2nd room was still there waiting for them just like it would have been had the opened the door before they rested. After a few adventures they told me that is what they was use to.

This is the story of how things went, we was using PFRPG.

First adventure the part is after McGruffin in a old temple. A goblin tribe had moved in and found undead. they closed the undead off in rooms or sections of the old temple and lived in the rest of it. The party manages to clear the first level, the cleric uses many of his channelings to hurt undead instead of heal the party(using it when no one was hurt but there was undead around), the wizard burns through his spells very quickly as well. By the time the first level is clear they was out of spells and the melee's where getting low on HP. So they leave the temple and go to a old hunting lodge they found a few hours away as a safe place to securely camp and rest.

The goblins who had a alarmed sounded had a ambushed set up at the entrance to the 2nd level. They waited and waited and when no one came they sent up scouts. The found all their dead kin and then found all the dead undead. They had been unable to defeat the undead and had been forced to trap them. Now the goblins are scared of the things that killed everything and afraid they will come back. So the goblins gather what they can carry and run away to find a new home.

The party comes back the next day finds most of the second level empty and easily after only a couple of encounters find and get the McGruffin. After the adventure we talked and some of the players asked where the goblins went(they was wanting the xp and treasure from them) I explained what happened and that the goblins left. They seem dumbfounded, they agreed it made sense and in the goblins place they would have done it too, but had said no GM had ever done that with them before.

Second adventure, while staying in town orcs and a wizard raid it in the middle of the night stealing something from the church. The party tries to track them and fails at night so has to wait till first light. They track them back to a old fort, they try to sneak in and make it a ways before the alarm is sounded. They still manage to clear out the fort and the renforcement group that came up. So then they head down into the dungeon under it where the other orcs came from. But can only go a short way due to burning off of spells and healing rapidly.(like the cleric burning a channeling to heal when only one person is hurt instead of saving it till when more people was hurt etc)

So they retreat back to town only a few hours away and camp. The next day they go back find the orcs had set up some traps, barricades etc. The wizard had cast alarm at the entrance to the dungeon and when the party came back the wizard knew and informed the orcs. So they had to fight the orcs in prepared defenses and in larger numbers per fight, since the orcs knew they was coming. The clear out a lot but not all and are forced to retreat back to town again.

The next day they go back wipe out the last of the orcs but the wizard is no where to be found or the item from the local church. When a orc prisoner is questioned he informs them the wizard completed the ritual with the item the second night and then left, leaving the orcs to twist in the wind.

The party enjoyed both adventures and that the NPC's reacted to what they did, since that time the casters have been a lot more careful with using magic and only use the least amount they think they need to to win the fight. The cleric melee's more and the wizard uses low level scrolls he scribes and cantrips more. Now they with smart resource management press on a lot further in adventures often completing them with out resting.

I have found running like that and players avoid novaing like the plague unless they think they are about to die. To me the key is just running a living breathing world. In the first case getting their goal turned out to be easier, sure they missed out on some xp and treasure. The second case they ended up failing. The first had no time restriction on it, just Goblins that reacted and the second had a time restriction.

Now I am not saying this always works and it is a magic fix cause it's not. I still see the occasionally 15 min adventuring day, but they are pretty rare cause the players and their characters try to avoid them when possible.

Anyways just taking part in the conversation and sharing my own personal experiences and nothing more.
 

What is it about "for me, DM intervention and playstyle changes do not solve this problem to a satisfactory degree" that is so damn hard to understand?

Also, most of the solutions that go down the playstyle/DM line of thought include preserving the Vancian/per-day magic system as one of their premises. For people who have no love for that system and don't take that premise for granted, those solutions are very hollow. The root of the problem is per-day resources, and for people who don't hold per-day magic to be a sacred cow the obvious solution is that per-day needs to change some how.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
You may be correct. Surely if the issue is as old as D&D then it would be addressed in Dragon Magazine at some point prior to 3E?

I'm not claiming to have perfect recall, but my Dragon collection goes back to issue #44 or so...and I don't recall hearing of the problem until after the year 2000 or so.

Perhaps someone wrote an article to fix the issue or complained about it in the forum column.

"Dear Dragon, I never thought it would happen to me, but last Saturday night..."
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
For people who have no love for that system and don't take that premise for granted, those solutions are very hollow.

Then perhaps, for those people, the system IS the problem, and they should try another FRPG with mechanics more to their liking, instead of trying to change D&D into something else.

Many people like Vancian magic- myself included- why take away their fun when you don't have to?
 
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Aenghus

Explorer
I suspect a major factor in whether or not the short adventuring day issue appears in a particular group is the personalities of the player or players who make the decisions in the group. Impatient decision makers tend to press ahead regardless of resource issues, and possibly accept high casualty rates as a standard part of play, not attaching much feeling to any one PC. Whereas cautious mastermind types like to plot and plan everything, and will exploit features of the system used for their own and hopefully the group's benefit.

I personally think there's a darwinian selection process towards mastermind type players for casters, as they are so vulnerable to sudden death when played in a more gung ho style. It's easy to run casters badly - just choose less effective spells, use them inappropriately or worse don't use them at all. Badly played casters of the "accidentally fireball their own group" type tend to have a very high casualty rate in my experience as the group themselves force the offending PC to retire or just gank them.

Groups with ineffective casters are less likely to see the short adventuring day problem. There's a vast gulf between naively used casters and those who ruthlessly exploit the potential of the most broken spells in most editions, especially at higher levels.

And for many editions of D&D the issue is the system rewards effective use of "nova and rest" tactics as written, as it generally reduces group risk and importantly, makes the casters players feel really powerful and dominant, and the non-casters less relevant. Caster players are incetivised to look for "nova and rest" opportunities as a consequence, and if they are the ones making the group decisions, since it really does reduce group risk and increase goal success probability, it's hard to argue against on a purely in-game basis.


Steps can be taken to make the tactic less effective, and they have been discussed in this thread. There are options that can't be used effectively in some game styles or editions. Mechanics matter, and options in one edition may not work in another.

The most notable examples of short adventuring day in my experience have been in sandbox style games at mid to high level where the players largely determine their own goals and schedules, especially when they avoid personal entanglements.

What won't work is asking players to act contrary to their own interest for no reward "for the good of the game". Some players don't find taking higher risks more fun than being more cautious.

And asking players to press ahead will backfire when there are casualties or a TPK from pressing ahead due to DM pressure when the group tried to rest. Players will do what's successful, what they are taught to do. If short adventuring days work they may stick to that. If taking risks results in lots of failure - casualties and/or failure in achieving goals, they will become risk adverse and work hard to avoid taking them.
 

Dark Mistress

First Post
What is it about "for me, DM intervention and playstyle changes do not solve this problem to a satisfactory degree" that is so damn hard to understand?

Also, most of the solutions that go down the playstyle/DM line of thought include preserving the Vancian/per-day magic system as one of their premises. For people who have no love for that system and don't take that premise for granted, those solutions are very hollow. The root of the problem is per-day resources, and for people who don't hold per-day magic to be a sacred cow the obvious solution is that per-day needs to change some how.

I am guessing your post right after mine is a response to my post. If so I never said it wasn't a problem for some people or that what I said was a magic fix. I was merely sharing my personal experience with it and how things worked out for my group and I. If anything it highlights how play styles see things drastically differently. I have played in games where resting was never a problem and the group rested a lot.

But it is a reason I don't want to see a game mechanic to fix the problem. Unless the mechanic is a option. For me resource management and pushing on to your limits is one of the biggest appeals of DnD. Anyways not saying your wrong, only offering my different personal experience in a way to join the conversation and nothing more.
 

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