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I think I've lost my way.

The root problem is the rules heavy games that encourage power gaming and character building. Gamers often focus on what the game system is focused on.


Return to more basic versions of the game. Trying to find or start an OD&D or 1e game. House rule out the stuff that gets in the way of fun. Some of the OSR games are worth a look as well.

Labyrinth Lord or other retro-clone will probably provide the type of system that supports the sort of game you seek.
 

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I second these previous suggestions:

1) Try to keep the game at the low levels (e.g. start low and use a slow advancement rate) because the higher the level the more the character abilities, which leads some players into an optimization/combo madness. Power players will try to optimize even a 1st level commoner, but at least they'll be done much more quickly. Low level also means few gamebreaking abilities and generally less need for complicated rulings.

2) Restrict the game to corebooks and optionally allow e.g. 1 extra book to each player. This seriously diminish the combinations, especially the worst ones.

And then I would add the following:

3) Ditch XP... Don't leave advancement entirely up to your whim but instead try something as simple as letting them know that "you will all level up when and if you complete this adventure / reach this milestone". This helps the player to stop thinking about next level and what new abilities to choose, and instead to focus on the adventure.

4) Magic is not for sale: make it so that no magic item (except various healing potions and life-savers) can be bought nor sold, and the only way to get a magic item is to find random items in treasure (and optionally to craft your own). Then decrease the number of minor magic items in treasure in place for less frequent but more powerful item, always either randomly generated or story-driven. This totally removes one huge layer of character optimization.
 

The root problem is the rules heavy games that encourage power gaming and character building. Gamers often focus on what the game system is focused on.
So true.

The original post really hits home for me.

I enjoy and play all versions of the game, but I started losing some enjoyment with 3rd Edition because of all those feats and abilities—variety I had always desired in classes in the old days, especially in the fighter—but in practice greatly enabled power gamers. Suddenly every other player (I'm speaking from a DM perspective) seemed at want a Ranger/Swordmage/battledancer/whatever. There was no sense of PC personality, but stirring in a level of whatever class helped make the PC invincible. 4e brought more of the same, but instead of multiclassing, the PCs became mere bundles of powers cobbled from every source imaginable with the players requesting magic items specially chosen to play off certain powers. It soon became "Well, if my PC gets bloodied, X, Y, and Z powers will kick in" or "If I can knock a guy prone, I can use X, Y, combined with Z." Powers felt like MAGIC card combos, with players evaluating newer powers and swapping them out for less efficient ones, with seemingly little thought to the PC's theme or personality. The whole began to feel too tactical, and players expect to defeat every opponent. (Not all my players are power gamers, but there seems to be 1-2 in every group I DM now.)

Don't get me wrong, the newer editions brought plenty of much needed innovations to the game, IMHO (a simple "the AC is the roll you need" replacing the dreaded THAC0, for example). I can honestly say I've enjoyed playing every edition and eagerly await what comes next. But as the rules improved and grew more complex, I've felt the soul of the game slip away.
 
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If you want to limit or control the amount of power gaming
1. find new players; or
2. establish the limits based on the setting first and enforce them

I am not not sure which edition your playing. If 3e and wiling to do some "work", you can start with:

1. No Free multiclassing. Multiclassing requires training (see the DMG variant on training). This requires finding a trainer, convincing them to train you, and having the time to train. How long do you think it takes to train to become a monk, a wizard, to learn proficiency in every armor and martial weapon? You the GM decide and the character must sit out that long. If the PCs are travelling in some remote area, then they may be, completely, out of luck.
If the trainer is another PC or NPC travelling with the party, you might even set feat and skill pre-reqisites to represent acquiring skills as one goes through "apprenticeship"

2. Prestige Classes: determine which (if any) are appropriate for and exist in your setting. Tie them to specific cultures or organizations. Again, players cannot simply take them. They have to know about them, gain entry into organization, convince them to train the character, etc. "Knowing" about a PrC might mean growing up in the appropriate culture while others need to spend time in the culture. Other times, the organization might be secret and not easily known and have to be discovered in play.
And, again, if PCs are in the wrong area of the world, they are out of luck.

Now, there may be some instances where the character might be able to be a member of the "organization" whether an academy, temple, guild, culture, etc. at first level. In such a case, you might require them to start as a class variant to represent their specific training (see the PHB Customizing a character, the DMG, and UA class variants). This may eliminate some or all of the need to multiclass. The class variant might have the armor and weapon proficiencies and the skill list of the the PrC, maybe a variant of a standard class feature (e.g., detect undead instead of detect evil) or more limited spell list. However, they still need to meet the pre-requisites of the PrC to level in it. This brings me to the the following question:

3. Why are they multiclassing? Is it to meet a reasonable (for the given campaign setting) fantasy archetype or background not supported from the start by existing classes, but by jumping hoops or penalizing them in other ways (e.g., cross class skills). A rogue with wilderness skills or martial capability, a bard that is a lore keeper/historian for a barbarianclan/tribe in which wilderness skills are more appropriate, a divine bard that is a priest for a particular deity, a rage based warrior that grew up brawling in back alleys and pubs of a city rather than a wilderness based tribe/clan.

a. Consider using Unearthed Arcana style class variants and/or some additional base classes. Sometimes multiclassing is done to meet a concept that is a common fantasy archetype not supported without jumping hoops or penalizing the character in other ways.

Myself, I like to use the OA Shaman (replaces the monk in my campaigns), Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook, Shaman's Handbook, and Witch's Handbook.

I also make use of UA class variants like the Barbarian Hunter (with favored environment and cultural weapon groups), several bard variants, martial rogue, and wilderness rogue

b. Consider using the Urban/Wilderness skill swap from the Cityscape web enhancement.

c. Boost the skill points per level for the cleric, fighter, and sorcerer and, maybe, add a few extra class skills.

5. If the players are trying to take levels to gain several armor and weapon proficiencies and/or boost good saves and avoid taking the appropriate feats, limit a classes initial armor and weapon proficiencies to starting characters. After first level, the only way to gain new armor and weapon proficiencies is by taking the appropriate feats either through leveling or bonus class feats. Similarly, require characters to use the save progression of their initial class. After first level, they can improve it by taking the appropriate feat(s) to represent new training.

6. Are they multiclassing, because spellcasters dominate? Tone down the spellcasting classes. Some places to start:
a. Clerics: Create you campaign's deities and set their spell lists to what is appropriate by their domains (see Tailored spell lists in the 3e DMG). If necessary, you might want to rewrite some of the domain spell lists by swapping certain spells for others. This cuts back on the versatility of the class making them more thematic. It might even remove some core spells from the game if they don't fit any of the deities.

Limit Planar Allies to a specific creature associated to an individual deity. Build each deity an ally for each version of the spell. This is what shows when the spell is cast. For example, if the deity's associated creature is a an eagle, start with that as the base form. Increase the size, add templates, etc. to scale its power.

You might even want to look at spontaneous divine casting from UA which reduces the number of spells known. Myself, when I ran 3e, I used spontaneous divine casting with a cleric's spells known limited to their deity's domains plus a handful of spells that I felt were appropriate for all characters.

b. Wizards: require them to find their spells as per the variant in the DMG. The spells they can learn must come from this list. For specialist wizards, you might tailor their spell lists (again, see the DMG variant on tailoring spell lists).

c. Druids: You can drop them for the Green Ronin Shaman, ban or add more pre-requisites to Natural Spell, place more limits on the form that can be Wild Shaped into and/or the creatures that can be companions (by fiat, the terrain in which the druid grew up and/or or controlling what creatures are in your setting, etc.), and limit which PrCs are available.

d. limit the spells from alternate source to what is appropriate for your campaign.


So many years ago I started playing D&D. It was great. I joined a group in college; none of us really knew the rules but we had fun. We made decisions on the spot about rules. We didn't care if our choices were optimized. No matter what happened, we did our best to not say "No" when "Yes, but it will be difficult" would do. We just played and had fun.

But time marches on and the old group has graduated and gone their separate ways. I've found other groups and for the most part they've been good. But with each new group I've been with, the rules have taken more precedence. Character and role-playing have taken a back seat to power. And now I find myself saying "No" more and more often; becoming afraid that some of my players are cobbling together some sort of multi-class monster that I won't see coming until its too late.

And so I sit here now, staring at my campaign notes, wishing that there was some way for me to recapture the games of old. When I wouldn't have to sit at the table and listen to the GM and two players argue about the physics behind a falling book for a half hour. When no one cared what your classes were, so long as you were having fun.

Maybe I'm just nostalgia blind. But I'm curious what advice you have to give me enworld. What can I do?
 
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So many years ago I started playing D&D. It was great. I joined a group in college; none of us really knew the rules but we had fun. We made decisions on the spot about rules. We didn't care if our choices were optimized. No matter what happened, we did our best to not say "No" when "Yes, but it will be difficult" would do. We just played and had fun.

But time marches on and the old group has graduated and gone their separate ways. I've found other groups and for the most part they've been good. But with each new group I've been with, the rules have taken more precedence. Character and role-playing have taken a back seat to power. And now I find myself saying "No" more and more often; becoming afraid that some of my players are cobbling together some sort of multi-class monster that I won't see coming until its too late.

And so I sit here now, staring at my campaign notes, wishing that there was some way for me to recapture the games of old. When I wouldn't have to sit at the table and listen to the GM and two players argue about the physics behind a falling book for a half hour. When no one cared what your classes were, so long as you were having fun.

Maybe I'm just nostalgia blind. But I'm curious what advice you have to give me enworld. What can I do?


Our group went through something very similar 2 years ago or so. A lot of it was "group stuff" happening away from the game (life and school transitions, etc.), but it was having an effect on the game. It just wasn't as "fun" anymore, and as a result, getting people to show up was becoming difficult--because who wants to spend 3-5 hours sitting around only kinda-sorta-maybe having fun?

Option 1 is to simply take a break. Put your RPG-ing on hold for 3-6 months. Let everyone catch a breath of fresh air, and come back with a renewed sense of perspective. In fact, whether you do anything else (change systems, house rule, whatever), I'd do this regardless. It did wonders for our group when we got back together.

Option 2 is change rules systems. It doesn't sound like it should be the case, but changing rule systems WILL change your group's play style in some ways. Even if players revert back to their usual habits, they'll have to interact with the game / system differently than they have in the past, and will force them to think differently.

If your players are averse to changing rules, then DEFINITELY scale back the available material and splat books. Also, don't hesitate to simply lay down some house rules like, "These classes / races are banned. Period. You don't like it, find a new group." ;)

Find ways to reward players differently than simply "leveling up" or receiving magic items. Make these rewards in-game, and less tangible than a +X weapon or armor.

Option 2a --- In addition to changing rules, try changing genres entirely. If you've been playing with the same basic fantasy tropes for 5 years or more, try a modern game or sci-fi. Try moving the setting from "medieval" period to something more ancient / primeval.
 

Also, don't hesitate to simply lay down some house rules like, "These classes / races are banned. Period. You don't like it, find a new group."

Yup- I've played in games where Paladins, Monks and even any non-human race were prohibited. If you're the DM, yours is the last word in the fundamental nature of the campaign world.
 

The root problem is the rules heavy games that encourage power gaming and character building. Gamers often focus on what the game system is focused on.

I'm not so sure that it is an issue of rules-heavy vs rules-light. I think it's more an issue of how some of the D&D rules (irregardless of being heavy or light) are currently structured as well as how they are presented and portrayed.
 

Magic is not for sale: make it so that no magic item (except various healing potions and life-savers) can be bought nor sold, and the only way to get a magic item is to find random items in treasure (and optionally to craft your own). Then decrease the number of minor magic items in treasure in place for less frequent but more powerful item, always either randomly generated or story-driven. This totally removes one huge layer of character optimization.

I can't get behind that. Yes, it will have that effect, but unless the sale of such items is actually illegal in the campaign world, that violates basic economics.

What I do instead is rigorously enforce the laws of supply & demand. You want to buy an item, fine. First you have to find someone selling it...and then the haggling begins. And before you ask, yes, I do this with mundane items as well-any and every major purchase. Just because the party has 25k GP doesn't mean they could buy a pack of 1000 non-magical Guard Dogs and release them upon an unsuspecting dungeon.

( :D )
 

In my experience it's the difference between having played RPGs for years and just starting out playing them. Once you've played for so long, the mystery leaves the game. It's only normal. If you want to try and recapture the feelings of when you first began playing RPGs, recruit a group of people that have never played an RPG before. Works wonders. You'll start to care less about rules, and more about just having fun. Changing systems, regardless of whether they're rules light or rules heavy, won't help as much since all of the players will have experience with RPGs and after a few sessions will usually have a firm enough grasp on the rules to bring back the old issues. Start fresh with inexperienced players. It's good for you and good for the hobby.
 

Into the Woods

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