D&D 4E What Do You Like About 4e?

Why do you play 4e rather than another edition? Alternatively, what do you like about it even if you mostly play another edition?

(Yeah, this topic has undoubtedly been covered before; just humor me. It's for a charitable cause. ;))

*As a DM who likes to use his own settings, the number of D&Disms woven into the rules is much reduced compared with previous editions, who depended on setting structures like alignment, planar cosmology or power source to properly use class abilities or basic mechanics like healing. I can play a lot of different settings with 4e that I can't with 3e or 2e without extensive house ruling.

*I can plan a large variety of plot scenarios that are not immediately invalidated by spells. (In my experience, and what I've learned after readin many story hours written by very good and talented DMs, is that starting at mid levels they go like this: Cleric casts Read DM's Notes, and learns everything they have to learn. Then they try to Scry the bad guy, but he's protected against divination. The group uses a clever loophole in the wording of the spells to overcome the protection. Then they cast find the path/wind walk/teleport and arrive at the bad guy's stronghold, and beat his defenses using more spells. The fighter/barbarian/gonzo prestige class charges into combat, deals a significant amount of damage, and is downed/dominated/taken out in one round. The rogue tries to sneak in, but everything has blindsight, then flanks and attack, but everything is immune to criticals and deals 1d6+4 damage. The cleric casts some spell and the fighter is up again, then the cleric buffs himself and deals more damage in melee of with spells that the fighter did. Then the mage casts something apocaliptic and ends the battle. I've seen and read this exact pattern many, many times, again from very good DMs.

*I appreciate that the rules are transparent, utilitarian and and cohesive, without taking unnecesary detours to provide a false sense of variety or simulationism. This makes making house rules and on the fly rulings easier.

*The defects in the system (like math imbalance at higer levels or the magic item dependence) are much easier to fix (with a free expertise feat and inherent bonuses) than the mechanical screw ups of 3e (like the saving throw math)

*I don't know if it was the design intent (specially seeing how early adventure modules were designed) but I find it leads to less frequent, more important combats with more out of combat stuff style, rather than frequent skirmishes with trash monsters whose only purpose is to be so meaningless that it's unproductive to use a spell slot on them, so you send the fighter.

*Emphasis on active abilities make the character feel powerful when you use them, rather than being powerful because of math.

*The PC design make reskinning very easy and in general terms, a much higer variety of playable PCs than previous edition possible. A haunted set of armor? Easy in 4e. In 3e, not without massive EL penalties.

*Combat is fun, even if too slow at a times, and rewards good players -not merely good minmaxers- and much easier to remember and play. Some of the previous edition combat rules are unnecesary complicated for little gain; the grapple rules are a well known example, but the penalties on ranged attacks and shooting into melee are facepalm worthy too.

*Edit: I don't know how I fogot this, but it's quite important. When my campaings of 3e reached 10 level or beyond, it wasn't uncomon to me to spend an entire afternoon designing an NPC or two before online tools were developed for that. That's unnaceptable. I can do that for 4e in 20 seconds.
 
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Why do you play 4e rather than another edition? Alternatively, what do you like about it even if you mostly play another edition?

(Yeah, this topic has undoubtedly been covered before; just humor me. It's for a charitable cause. ;))

As a player, I like getting to make interesting decisions in combat, especially when playing a Fighter. I think 4e is really 'Fighter edition D&D' - they finally made my preferred class the coolest class. :D

As a GM, prep is easy in terms of stat blocks and encounters, though open/sandbox play can be a challenge. I like the 'Big Damn Heroes' feel, where the odds are usually with the PCs, and random death is rare - it's good for a more relaxed approach to play - less Fantasy Effin Vietnam. It's great for playing with players who are not committed min-maxers, although the design is also good for accommodating powergamers - it's much harder to 'break' than 3e.
I'm running 4e Forgotten Realms and have found that the ruleset fits the setting very well, I think it's probably closer to the way Ed Greenwood ran FR than you would get from running 1e or 3e D&D by-the-book.
 

As a player, I like getting to make interesting decisions in combat, especially when playing a Fighter. I think 4e is really 'Fighter edition D&D' - they finally made my preferred class the coolest class. :D

On behalf of monks, bards, warlocks, rangers, vampires, warlords, and wizards (at the very least) I object! ;) But that's part of the point - almost all classes in 4e are very cool depending what you look for. (Fighters are a contender, certainly).

It's great for playing with players who are not committed min-maxers, although the design is also good for accommodating powergamers - it's much harder to 'break' than 3e.

As possibly the power gamer you are thinking of (I could object but that's for another thread), this is a huge strength. I like pushing the system to see what I can come up with - and 4e is generally pretty resilient when being pushed.

Last time I had a look at Pathfinder, I decided the Summoner looked cool - then realised if I built the Eidolon as a scout rather than a fighter it was better at it than the rogue. Which meant I could use my summon monster in combat, providing more meat and more damage applied to pivotal points than the fighter, and with a fully augmented top tier summon monster out at the start of every fight (acting a round before anyone else's summons could) I could save my slots mostly for utility magic, about matching the sorceror for utility casting thanks to the summoner getting spells before their normal level.

That sort of nonsense makes me very cautious about pushing. I'm matching three separate classes at their areas of strength. And am a face character with UMD as a class skill. This makes me conservative about the characters I'm going to build.

4e, I can push because I'm not going to get results like that.
 

As possibly the power gamer you are thinking of (I could object but that's for another thread), this is a huge strength. I like pushing the system to see what I can come up with - and 4e is generally pretty resilient when being pushed.

I'm not sure I've ever even noticed 3e-style powergaming from any player in any 4e game I've run. There are a few broken or badly designed spells/powers (anything that trivialises a fight without ending it, imo), but no general build issues that I've seen.

Again, I think that speaks to the strength of the design, as you say.
 
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After DM'ing it for as long as it's been around, I've come to settle on a few headline items, all of which I've heard from countless other DM's over the years. Still, no-one said I had to be original!

* Monster, trap, challenge, encounter building... these are so, so sweet now, especially with the electronic tools. Since these are essentially 90% of my prep, it's no surprise this is my favourite edition to DM.

* The tactical combat system has incredible depth. This is great for important, climactic encounters where there's lots at stake, but a pain in the butt for the smaller, more incidental encounters that make up a lot of a traditional game of D&D (at my table at least). Still, there are lots of ways to simplify and streamline the rules for quicker encounters, and it's much easier to reduce a system with tons of depth than it is to enrich a system which is, by comparison, shallow. It would have been nice for such options to be built into the rules...but when I think back on the complex, exciting, multi-layered encounters we've run in the last few years, I can't help but love the system that made it possible.

* Challenging the players is relatively easy. I can challenge any class, of any level, at any time, in and out of combat, in multiple ways, and don't have to obsess about the damn wizard circumventing hours and hours of prep with one spell. [MENTION=5656]Someone[/MENTION], above, nailed it in his second point.
 

I love that balancing the character classes resulted in casters (particularly Wizards) being less backloaded. Allowing my character to slings spells throughout the day let's me play a wizened old Galdalf type even at low levels. That image gets tarnished in earlier editions when my "Gandalf" spends most of the day shooting things with a crossbow.
 
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I really love the idea (though not the implementation) of minions and skill challenges.

I'd change minions to something like 1 hp per minion level...as I like them getting mowed down (sorta like 2e's rules for heroic fray)...but I also like the fact that players can feel like their high damage matters even for minions.

Skill challenges...too often I feel "forced" to contribute to a skill challenge (e.g. a fighter with low charisma having to roll SOMETHING in a diplomatic type challenge). I like the general idea, but it could use some improvement.


I also like milestones. I like a mechanic that players earn and can spend as they advance through encounters throughout the day.
 

As a player, making the math work so much better, and making different classes and races comparable in strength and ability to contribute to the game is a huge advantage. Flatter math might be even better (I don't know), but there is a noteworthy sense that everyone can adequately participate in combat, which is great.

I love surges and how healing is dealt with. The fact that I can almost die in a fight and regularly still start the next one with a full complement of HP without draining the cleric's spells is great game design, in my mind.

I really like rituals, and the way they allow casters to cast non-combat spells without having to commit to the spell with a vancian slot. Not having to choose between Tenser's Floating Disk or Floating Lights makes playing spellcasters much, much easier.

I'm torn about the tactical game. I enjoy it much more than prior edition combat, but it soaks up a ridiculous amount of time, especially at paragon/epic, at least for us. So there's that.

Making things easier on the DM is a big, no, huge thing. The DM already has a ton of work. I can't say enough about this, so I'm going to stop here.

I don't know whether others feel that this is an intrinsic part of the game, but a D&Di subscription that makes all parts of the rules available (for lookup and for character and monster building) for a relatively cheap price is a huge benefit for me. They are certainly imperfect, but they were big for me.

(6) F/R/W as defenses, instead of saving throws. I generally prefer for whoever's acting to be the one to roll dice.
Thanks for saying this. I never quite figured out how to articulate it, but I like these defenses a lot. I really wished Next would keep them.

(9) A tighter condition list. 4e's list is a lot more concise than what's come before.
Despite the condition list being well-defined, the amount of effects we pile on is dramatic in 4e. Some of my gnome mage's effects are a paragraph long, and tracking that adds to the work (and the long
 

  • Stronger 1st level characters (front loading HP)
  • Simpler mechanics facilitating faster play
  • Rests and Healing Surges concept (but not the fluff that accompanies these mechanics, and not 100% of the mechanics...but the concept is Awesome!)
  • The concept of Skill Challenges (though not necessarily the execution by RAW...I think this concept as a module will be even better in 5E with Ability score based Skill Checks facilitating more creative uses of skills)
  • Simpler Monster Creation and Stat-blocks
  • Minions!
  • Action Points
  • Powers (though I dislike the disconnect of mechanics and fluff in the design of many of them)
  • Pont-Buy based Ability Score Generation!
  • Re-training
B-)
 

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