Expertise Dice Not Necessarily Fighter Exclusive

[triqui]

The *mechanic*, as it were, is "use a resource to fuel effects".

By that definition, 3e Barbarians, 2e wizards, and 4e warlords share the "mechanic".

They don't. The mechanic is vastly different. CS is not related, in any way, with Channel Divinity. It's not even close to. It's not related to Barbarian Rage, or Bard's songs. They are completelly different mechanics, and that's a good thing.

Monks can have their own mechanic, they don't need to borrow Fighter's one.

 

[Stalker0]

If we strip the fighter flavor out of the CS mechanic for a moment, lets just take a look at what this particular mechanic offers us:


1) A round-based renewable resource, that requires no active actions on the player's part.

2) The abilities driven off this mechanic are "Sorceror-esque" in design, you know a limited number, but can use them freely, changing round per round.

3) At least right now, you can only use one ability per round.

4) As levels increase, some abilities scale (the dice value goes up) while some do not (some abilities use all your CS dice to power the effect).



When I look back at 3e, you know what this reminds me of? The dragon shaman. It was a class that had a set number of abilities powered off of a common number that increased with level. You could switch them freely with each round, and some abilities grew stronger while some remained the same.


The lesson here is that this mechanic is not brand new, just a new packaging. But that's a real truth in game design, there is only so much you can do with dice, pen, and paper that humans can use and understand. The packaging is a critical part of the mechanic, perhaps even the most part.


So while it certainly works with the fighter, other classes could adapt the concept if WOTC chose to, and with sufficient repacking, it would be a completely different thing.

 

[triqui]

IWhen I look back at 3e, you know what this reminds me of? The dragon shaman. It was a class that had a set number of abilities powered off of a common number that increased with level. You could switch them freely with each round, and some abilities grew stronger while some remained the same.

Really? I don't see any parallelism there.
Combat superiority is a single skill, which can be used every round (at the very least, to do damage, or absorve it), where Dragon Shamans had to wait 1d4 rounds to use each skill. That makes an important difference. The playtest even says that, when you level up, you gain more than 1 Combat Superiority die, which makes for a completelly different kind of empowerment. The playstyle of a character that can use several "resource points" per round, for different effects, is completelly different than a character that can use a "resource point" every 1d4 rounds.

The difference between mechanics are varied. But one of the most important ones, is the recharging. If a mechanic is recharged by round, or by encounter, or daily, or has a "cooldown" like Dragon Shaman, or has "spell points" that are recovered every hour... that makes for very different items to be powered up by the mechanic.

Also, the number of "points" to spend can say how powerful de mechanic is. It's not the same to spend "rages per day" than "rounds of rage per day", as Pathfinder does. You get a completelly different granularity with that one, and the kind of powers it can fuel, is very different too.

 

[The Shadow]

3) At least right now, you can only use one ability per round.

Wait, what? I see no sign that this is true, and it severely gimps CS if it is. Where do you see this rule?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm surprised to hear people comparing CS to magic systems. The CS fighter is more like the 3.5 fighter than anything else. CS, specifically, is more than a bit like the 3.x (Combat) Expertise and Power Attack feats. In 3.x, your fighter had the 'best' BAB progression, and traded attack bonus for AC or damage using those feats. In the current playtest, the CS fighter has a damage progression, and trades in that damage for other tricks based on the Fighting Style he has (which just happens to be structured just like Specialty, which is a collection of feats). It's very nearly a straight translation from the BAB/multiple-attack paradigm to the bounded-accuracy/scaling damage paradigm.

 

[n00bdragon]

I'm surprised to hear people comparing CS to magic systems. The CS fighter is more like the 3.5 fighter than anything else. CS, specifically, is more than a bit like the 3.x (Combat) Expertise and Power Attack feats. In 3.x, your fighter had the 'best' BAB progression, and traded attack bonus for AC or damage using those feats. In the current playtest, the CS fighter has a damage progression, and trades in that damage for other tricks based on the Fighting Style he has (which just happens to be structured just like Specialty, which is a collection of feats). It's very nearly a straight translation from the BAB/multiple-attack paradigm to the bounded-accuracy/scaling damage paradigm.

People are just mad that fighters, once in a while, for an instant, might be something resembling (with thick enough goggles) "cool".

 

[Tony Vargas]

People are just mad that fighters, once in a while, for an instant, might be something resembling (with thick enough goggles) "cool".

Any comparison to a magic system makes me nervous,...

 

[KidSnide]

If we strip the fighter flavor out of the CS mechanic for a moment, lets just take a look at what this particular mechanic offers us:

3) At least right now, you can only use one ability per round.

Where is this restriction? I believe you can use as many maneuvers as you want per round, so long as you have expertise dice available. In fact, I think the ability to use multiple maneuvers in a round is a key part of how the ability becomes more useful/powerful at higher levels.

-KS

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Where is this restriction? I believe you can use as many maneuvers as you want per round, so long as you have expertise dice available. In fact, I think the ability to use multiple maneuvers in a round is a key part of how the ability becomes more useful/powerful at higher levels.

I think he was referring to the low-level fighters having only one die, making it defacto once per round.

 

[FireLance]

Any comparison to a magic system makes me nervous,...

Martial or magic, from the perspective of pure mechanics, it all boils down to resources. Of course, there are many dimensions to resources which can be used to differentiate them, for example:

How do you gain resources?
How frequently do you gain (or regain) resources?
What can you use resources for?

Change any of the answers, and you get (at least from a surface perspective) a new resource management system.

A Vancian wizard, for example, has the following answers:
- Spell preparation after a long rest
- Daily, after a long rest
- Preparation of arcane spells

A 5e sorcerer's answers are slightly different:
- Automatically, after a long rest
- Daily, after a long rest
- Spontaneous casting of arcane spells; additional benefits once a fixed number of resources are expended

A 5e fighter's answers are more different:
- Automatically, at the start of his turn
- Once per round, at the start of his turn
- To activate martial maneuvers

A simple tweak to the way in which the resources are used, say, by allowing the character to accumulate resources and spend them all at once to create a more significant effect, or the ability to donate resources to other characters, could create a seemingly different resource management system that models a warlord's tactics and leadership:
- Automatically, at the start of his turn
- Once per round, at the start of his turn
- To activate martial maneuvers; may also be used to add to the effectiveness of an ally's maneuvers, or to allow an ally to use a maneuver he knows; may be accumulated and spent to activate more resource-intensive Tactical Abilities

Similarly, a tweak to the way in which the resources are gained, say, by being hit or by missing an enemy, could create another seemingly different resource management system that models a barbarian's rage:
- The character is hit or misses a target
- Each time the character is hit or misses a target
- To activate martial maneuvers; may be accumulated and spent to activate more resource-intensive Rage Abilities