Combat Superiority and Damage/HP bloat

[Sadrik]

I don't feel that way. The fact that it is done with a sword does not imply that anyone who picks up a sword can do it. Fighters should be able to do things with a sword that folks with lesser training simply cannot. That's what Combat Superiority does - models their superior training.

In my mind, superior training is just like all other training it is just better. Mechanically this should be the same combat system but better. This is a sub-system that is unique to the class. Nothing is superior, it is unique. If I get your gist, you think fighters should be the only one to be able to do these things. Fighters are the only one who should cleave, push, parry or shift. In, no case would a rogue or ranger or monk would want to do this. Or better there is no case a highly trained moster would want to this...

 

[Victim]

In my mind, superior training is just like all other training it is just better. Mechanically this should be the same combat system but better. This is a sub-system that is unique to the class. Nothing is superior, it is unique. If I get your gist, you think fighters should be the only one to be able to do these things. Fighters are the only one who should cleave, push, parry or shift. In, no case would a rogue or ranger or monk would want to do this. Or better there is no case a highly trained moster would want to this...

So as long as anyone else might want to be able to do something, the fighter can't have it as a class feature?

I mean, deal more damage when the enemy is off guard, who can't do that? Better get rid of sneak attack. Fighter always wants more heals, better take that them away from the cleric.

Monsters have their own unique powers that PCs don't get. What group of characters wouldn't want one of those "get bonus damage if you have allies who also have this feature" deals? Ogre and Minotaur Armor Piercing is in fact very similar to the fighter glancing blow power, so the presence of the fighter abilities is hardly locking them away from monsters.

 

[Stalker0]

It really seems like there's a portion of the fanbase that does not want the Fighter to have any unique toys at all. Very strange.

When it comes to CS, I don't think its about giving the fighter a unique mechanic, but perhaps a unique perspective on a mechanic that could be more general.

The general feeling on the boards it seems is that CS is a really good mechanic. People generally are liking it a lot. And there is nothing about that screams fighter. Oh, it certainly works well as a fighter mechanic, but nothing says that is has to be.

Look at adv/disadv (another generally popular mechanic right now). What if that had been introduced to us as a rogue only mechanic? Would we be forced to leave it in the rogue's bucket forever?


I personally think that the CS mechanic would work very well as a general weapon combat mechanic. And I would be all about giving the fighter some unique maneuvers only he could use, or perhaps his CS dice grew faster than other classes, etc. It would still highlight his specialness, but it would also give us another great mechanic that all of us could enjoy.

 

[Stalker0]

So as long as anyone else might want to be able to do something, the fighter can't have it as a class feature?

I mean, deal more damage when the enemy is off guard, who can't do that? Better get rid of sneak attack.

I would love for "sneak attack" to be a feature everyone could use, and then rogues got an ability that increased it for them.

That would suit me just fine.

 

[slobster]

When it comes to CS, I don't think its about giving the fighter a unique mechanic, but perhaps a unique perspective on a mechanic that could be more general.

I personally think that the CS mechanic would work very well as a general weapon combat mechanic. And I would be all about giving the fighter some unique maneuvers only he could use, or perhaps his CS dice grew faster than other classes, etc. It would still highlight his specialness, but it would also give us another great mechanic that all of us could enjoy.

I think that fighters should have something unique, just like wizards and sorcerers have something unique. But, just like you can pick up minor spellcasting abilities with the choice of the right specialty, I wouldn't mind if there were ways for other classes to pick up a few combat superiority dice as they leveled up. They wouldn't be as adept at using them as an actual fighter (just like the spellcasting granted by specialties is rather circumscribed), but it would still be a significant boost in both combat ability and flavor for those who select it.

That way you give the fighters something that makes them truly special while letting other classes in on the fun if they truly wish, in a way that has precedent.

If some other classes have their own takes on CS that would be fine too, as long as it doesn't become the default ability of any class that is supposed to swing a weapon in melee. I think paladins are (potentially) different enough conceptually and mechanically to justify the inclusion of entirely new mechanics, as opposed to cobbling together cast-offs of already-made classes.

 

[VinylTap]

What if the Fighter was the only Class who has the ability of turning his CS dice into Damage. And the Rogue was only able to do this when he had advantage.

 

[Li Shenron]

why... Is that not just saying I want them to be the new magic-user except with better hit points? ... Eating cake an all that...

Magic-user is the problem solver, the guy that finds a way to get past an obstacle where all mundane means have failed. Sometimes the obstacle can be a monster that is too tough to be beaten by force but has a weakness that can be exposed or hit by magic.

But that's just my personal idea, the game has long ago drifted to a combat-focused game so the magic-user is seen by the majority of gamers as mostly a blaster, a mass damage dealer.

 

[Umbran]

I disagree ... It should ba a combat mechanic that fighters are better at, either in terms of dice number or die type (which I hate ) or refresh rate.

Yes, and they *are* better. They get some, you get none. That's kind of the definition of "better"

Sub systems don't scale n multiclassing;

With bounded accuracy and overall flatter math, they may not need to worry so much about scaling in multiclassing. And, as I have suggested before, it may be that *some* other classes will get Expertise dice (say, a new Warlord) - that doesn't mean every class should get them.

Figure it this way: Expertise dice are to fighters as spells are to wizards. Do you wish to argue that everyone should get access to spells, but that the Wizard should just get more of them?

Everyone should get a shtick. You shouldn't have to share your shtick with too many others. If you really-o, truly-o want everyone to have Expertise dice, then suggest a better replacement that gives the fighter the shtick back that you just stole.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The general feeling on the boards it seems is that CS is a really good mechanic. People generally are liking it a lot. And there is nothing about that screams fighter. Oh, it certainly works well as a fighter mechanic, but nothing says that is has to be.

I agree that CS is a pretty decent mechanic, it scales, it's simple but versatile, with further development and polish it could match the 3e bonus-feat fighter for sheer design elegance. And, I agree that taking a good mechanic like that, and particularly it's underlying round-by-round resource-management structure, and using it for all classes would be a fine idea.

In a game that was free to design on such a basis.

Unfortunately, common mechanics are anathema to 5e design. 5e has a mandate to make each class mechanically distinct. Slightly bigger numbers aren't distinct - unique mechanics are.

If the fighter can't keep its monopoly on CS, it'll need something else. If that something else is any good, someone will demand that some other class (or all other classes) get it, as well. And what rationale is there for forbidding that? The fighter just fights, and everyone can fight. Magical or supernatural abilities can be unique, since they can be defined, arbitrarily, as unique. Mundane abilities cannot be.

Ultimately, if having a distinct mechanic is a necessary part of being a class in D&D, and unique-to-the-class supernatural abilities are the only way to justify a distinct mechanic, then the fighter (or rogue or warlord) simply is not a viable class concept.

 

[Stalker0]

Figure it this way: Expertise dice are to fighters as spells are to wizards. Do you wish to argue that everyone should get access to spells, but that the Wizard should just get more of them?

I don't think the analogy works the way you intended.

A lot of classes get spells, Wizards, Sorcerors, Warlocks (as rituals), Clerics, likely soon Druids.

The wizard has the benefit of having the strongest spells (through his DC bonus), and his spell list is different from a cleric, but at the core they are both slinging spells.

If that model works, why couldn't it work for martial classes using CS die?