Prestidigitation - Just some questions.

[Ragmon]

Hello everyone!

I have been reading Fun with Prestidigitation from Tome and Blood (here), and what I noticed what that the "Change" part of the spell is rather strong, and poorly worded and hence it can be really abused (that is IMO).
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"Change: You transform one object of Fine size or smaller into another object of roughly the same size. The object can weigh no more than 8 ounces.
The change must be within the same kingdom (animal, vegetable, or mineral). For example, you could change a piece of paper into scrap of linen, and then change that into a rose. Likewise, you could change a coin into a ring. You could not, however, turn a strip of leather into a piece of paper."
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So by these rules I could do these are my thought what you can change stuff into (in the brackets i note in what category of material I'm thinking):

Poisons (Any poison and I do mean any)
Water -> Any Poison (Liquids/Fluids)
Alchemist Fire -> Any Poison (Alchemical substance)
Milk -> Poison/Venom (Bodily fluids)
A copper coin -> Mercury or Polonium (Metals)

Material Components
Coal -> Diamond
Cheap Identify (change lasts for an hour so this stunt is questionable)
- Coal dust -> Diamond Dust
- Water -> Wine
- Chicken feather -> Owl feather
Quartz -> Any other gem
Horse Guano -> Bat Guano (Its easier to find horse guano then bat guano)

Other stupid stuff
Holy Water -> Unholy Water (or visa-verse)
Oat meal -> Glue
Copper Ring -> Gold Ring

1. Add some some other good ideas if you have any.
2. Correct me if I'm wrong.
3. And yes I am aware that with the "create" effect you can make stuff but not use em as material components, but it does not say so at the "change" part.

 

[Ahnehnois]

The 3.5 version of the text does not include that function of the spell, so I would say that it prevails.

Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.

It also notes that Prestidigitation cannot duplicate any other spell effects, which the uses you're proposing could easily be considered as.

Finally, most DMs have common sense, and allowing a cantrip to create diamonds doesn't make sense.

 

[Ragmon]

The 3.5 version of the text does not include that function of the spell, so I would say that it prevails.


It also notes that Prestidigitation cannot duplicate any other spell effects, which the uses you're proposing could easily be considered as.

Finally, most DMs have common sense, and allowing a cantrip to create diamonds doesn't make sense.

Well with some common sense, yes. But if we used common sense then everyone would need to roll fort vs being pushed back by a fireball, or fort vs heart failure when struck by any lightening spell. Or critical would work on undead and constructs.
An example for Change was:
Paper -> Linen -> A rose , that seems rather far fetched to me.
Creating a flower out of a piece of linen (plant fibers).

So by that logic why couldn't someone change some lesser gem into a more expensive type of gem or water to wine or one bodily fluid into another?

And if we would use the rule that It cant copy other spell effects then there wouldn't be any effect from prestidigitation that could be used.

 

[Nebten]

That's nice Ragmon. Go ahead and allow it in your game, then good luck trying to use it in somebody elses game.

 

[Greenfield]

We made some house rules for things like this, particularly with regards to Major Creation, but applicable here as well.

In our game worlds, pretty much every merchant or tradesman has a bar or plate of cold iron, usually affixed to their counter top. "Faerie Gold", as such things are called, revert to their original form or vanish away upon contact with cold iron. (That's the house rule).

As for creating diamond dust or other expensive material components? DM's call, but since the change aspect isn't there any more (three guesses as to why) it will be 100% house rule on your part.

As a DM, I'd have to reign in my vindictive/mischievous side when some player tried something like that. Why? Because counterfeit components invite severe abuse by a DM.

Additionally, materials transformed by magic tend to revert if broken. Pieces separated from the "main body" tend to resume their natural form. Since components get consumed (i.e. destroyed/broken) when the spell is cast, at some point in the casting the components will start to vanish, and when they do the remainder will revert.

Now the "can't duplicate any other spell" is an obvious patch job left over from 2nd edition, and if taken literally would mean that Prestidigitation couldn't actually do anything at all. Not in a world where Wish exists anyway. So take that part as a guideline, not an absolute rule.

Side note: Bat guano is hard to find? Look in any cave, or under the eaves of a building. Bats are far more common than you might think. In New Mexico, not far from Carlsbad, is a cave complex called the "New Cave". It was used in the making of the film King Solomon's Mines. Bat guano was harvested there for years, hauled out by the ton in a mining bucket big enough to fit a small car. It was used as fertilized in the California orange groves.

There are old buildings where the disused section will have it ankle deep on the floor.

There's no shortage of bat droppings.

 

[Celebrim]

Hello everyone!

I have been reading Fun with Prestidigitation from Tome and Blood (here), and what I noticed what that the "Change" part of the spell is rather strong, and poorly worded and hence it can be really abused (that is IMO).
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"Change: You transform one object of Fine size or smaller into another object of roughly the same size. The object can weigh no more than 8 ounces.
The change must be within the same kingdom (animal, vegetable, or mineral). For example, you could change a piece of paper into scrap of linen, and then change that into a rose. Likewise, you could change a coin into a ring. You could not, however, turn a strip of leather into a piece of paper."
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I would first state that you are right, those rules are poorly worded, abusable, and as such should be avoided.

As a general rule, the 3rd edition rules regarding the creation or fabrication of goods are all poorly thought out, because they don't price or balance the spell in terms of its economic impact, but its presumed usefulness in the presumed setting (a 'dungeon').

I consider even the 3.5 description overly broad, imprecise, and prone to abuse. In general, I try to minimize the ability of spell use to circumvent the skill system entirely.

The main guidelines I use for Prestidigitation is that anything it is used for must be superficial and quite temporary. You can change how something appears, but not what it is. For example, you could use Prestidigitation to turn water into poison, but it would acquire only the color, taste, and smell of poison (if any, everyone knows Iocain powder is colorless, odorless, and tasteless), while still retaining the properties of water (that is, it would remain harmless). It would then revert to its normal form after a short time (usually a minute, unless maintained, but I'd allow longer in the case of very slight changes, for example, making low quality wine appear to be of better quality would last the full hour). I would allow Prestidigitation to for example, cause a poison to appear, taste, and smell like wine (or water), with the result of making the poison temporarily more difficult to detect, but that's as far as I'd let that go.

Likewise, you can use Prestidigitation to give objects a temporary glamor, making for example, a bit of glass look more like a real diamond (or conversely, a diamond look like a bit of glass) or a clay ring to look like a gold one. This is mechanically represented by making the appraise check more difficult. But you can't use it to make a bit of glass as hard as diamond, much less permenently change something into something else.

Note that because I limit the maximum bonus/penalty granted by prestidigitation, in most cases Prestidigitation only fools the foolish. Most who examine the results of Prestidigitation will see through 'the trick' quite readily. But yes, the use of this spell as an aide in pulling off simple cons is quite common in my campaign world. And of course, that is highly illegal, with the penalty ranging from a time in the pillories to getting accused of witchcraft and burned by a lynch mob.

IMO, Prestidigitation's primary mechanical effect is to allow the caster to improvise circumstance bonuses/penalties to various skill checks - most obviously bluff, disguise, sleight of hand, hide, forgery, craft, perform and use rope but I'd entertain pretty much anything depending on the players creativity. I generally award a bonus of between +1 and +5 depending on the players creativity and the suitability of the effect to the desired result.

You are also presumed to be able to do pretty much anything you could do as a real world magic trick, only it's real. So you can move small objects freely about your person (commonly used to bring spell components from a pouch to immediate use), or cause two small objects in your control to change places. You can notably use it to cheat at cards or with dice, which involves getting a bonus on sleight of hand checks for that purpose.

You can use it to cause light objects to levitate, or move or cease to move, so you can for example create an umberella out of telekinetic force, or a slight cooling breeze, or reduce a wind about your person - which might get you a small bonus on endurance or survival survival checks in some situations. You can do similar tricks with warming and cooling beverages.

You can also make things out of nothing, but they have for most everything but appearances the property of nothing. For example, you can make a rope appear out of thin air, but it would have no weight, no hit points, no hardness, automatically fail saving throws, and would automatically fail any break DC involving more than 1 pound of force. And such objects automatically revert to nothing after an hour.