Deitys and Apologies

[Greenfield]

If you don't mind me asking, where did you get rules on Celtic gods? Did you Homebrew it?

Actually, I Googled Celtic mythology, the deities in particular.

That is to say, it wasn't a game source, but rather sources for actual Celtic mythology.

Our game is set in something akin to the real world, circa the year 500, give or take a few decades. So when I look for sources on history or mythology, I start with non-game sources, then fit them to the rules.

 

[Dozen]

Our game is set in something akin to the real world, circa the year 500, give or take a few decades. So when I look for sources on history or mythology, I start with non-game sources, then fit them to the rules.

Homebrew in my book. And an interesting approach!
I have an old book on pagans lying around somewhere; I wonder what can I squeeze out of the old Hungarian pantheon Thanks for the tip.

I'll have to come up with some fancy names though. Our ancestors weren't exactly picky when it came to naming deities. (Sunking? Really? It's a space away from the nickname of some French dude! Not that they knew when they came up with it, but still.) Maybe transcribed... How does Nawpkiray sound?

 

[Herobizkit]

@Dozen : If you can get your hands on a copy/PDF of the 2ed Legends & Lore book, there is an entire section dedicated to Celtic deities, among other better-known mythos...es.

 

[Jacob]

There was only one time in my games where a player directly interacted with a god(dess). Wee Jas, to be specific. He was sent on an epic quest to recover an artifact (a tome that pretty much gave the person 100% control over any and all conjuration spells, said to be the spellbook of the god of portals). The character in question was a level... 8? commoner, and he was tasked with protecting a level 11 wizard. It was pretty funny for the most part, but there were some rather serious moments when the two would almost die (which happened about 3 times in the 2 sessions that I ran it for). He went through some tough ---- during that short time.

Despite the fact that we never played any farther, I added him to the overall canon of my game world (all my campaigns take place in the same world). During his adventures, Wee Jas eventually gave him a golden pitchfork to use as a weapon, as a bit of a joke. It was amazingly powerful, however. I think I ended up statting it out, and it was able to use the wish spell once a month with no XP cost, along with a number of other things. To thank him for his 17 years of involuntary service in an all-out war between the gods, Wee Jas allowed him to keep the pitchfork.

Eventually, some characters in another campaign actually ran across him after about 10 or 20 in-game years had passed. He was, by that point, a level 21 commoner, and owner of one of the most successful taverns in the world, named "The Golden Pitchfork". He is now married to the wizard he protected all those years. The player who had done that short campaign with me immediately recognized him and freaked out, which was pretty fun. I'm planning on having that character help out a different campaign by providing the requisite wish spell when they fight the Terrasque.

Overall, I had Wee Jas treat him as if he were beneath her, for sure, but she still felt a bit guilty for taking up 17 years of his life. Kinda like how a person might feel if they captured a rat and forced it to run on a wheel in order to power their bedside lamp. An odd example, but one you'll have to put up with. Anyways; most of the gods in my game world will give you some compensation for services rendered, if only for the sake of keeping up appearances with their worshipers. Of course, that doesn't apply to most of the evil gods. Some really nice gods, on the other hand, will actually try to make you feel like you've been fairly compensated, although they still won't ask your permission before screwing your life over.

Given I tried to implement Wee Jas manipulation in my game as well, this story pulls at my heart strings a little. Though I really do wonder if Wee Jas, a goddess known for being relentless and incredibly demanding to the point of cruelty, would ever feel bad for putting a mortal through something they were tasked to do. We are talking about the goddess who oversees the dead and makes note of their passing, and given it's a never ending and thankless task, she would expect the same determination from all who worship her or do her bidding.

Of course, all campaigns are alternate realities of D&D worlds to begin with, so I do enjoy seeing this vision of what Wee Jas could be and what she did. Because that is a fine story indeed.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Answering from last to first.

1. Yes, It is

2. If Heironeous is what paladins strive to be, most paladins comically missed the point, and

3. Deities aren't some intanglible ascended beings we cannot possibly comprehend; they are just everyday men, women and "miscellaneous" with powers on steroids. And you can become one of them. Canon. Zagyg and Vecna did it. You can play them out in various ways as a DM, true. But his entry says Lawful Good. As apparently he's yet to fall, I'd guess he meant it when he filled out that char sheet, and no Good person has a 'not caring for those beneath him' policy. Damn right a real paladin doesn't. I'll go also ahead and assume if he managed to stay in the saddle for so long, he pulled the stick out off his ass soon enough, if he had one to begin with. Though this latter can be worked around if you really want a Holier Than Thou sthick, he'd still care for the rest, even for Evil ones, because that's what being Good is about. Your Heironeous in your campaign can only care for those he deemed important, but then go ahead and cross out the word 'Good', replace it with 'Neutral', and make him a cleric.

There is big difference between the Alignment of a PC and the Alignment of a God, if Heironeous does something evil does his god take away his powers?

Heironeous is Lawful Good because he is worshipped by Lawful Good Clerics not because he IS Lawful Good and because (In My Game, which I admit WILL be different from yours and everyone elses) in exchange for Lawful Good Clerics giving their "Energy" he gives them spells and such but even without that part his Alignment is what other think of him not how he acts.

 

[Dozen]

There is big difference between the Alignment of a PC and the Alignment of a God, if Heironeous does something evil does his god take away his powers?

Heironeous is Lawful Good because he is worshipped by Lawful Good Clerics not because he IS Lawful Good and because (In My Game, which I admit WILL be different from yours and everyone elses) in exchange for Lawful Good Clerics giving their "Energy" he gives them spells and such but even without that part his Alignment is what other think of him not how he acts.

Since he lacks a deity, he's a paladin of cause. And if he betrays his cause, he loses his powers. Though 'acting mean' does not violate the paladin Code of Conduct, which I certainly didn't mean to say(neither did you, just making clear). I meant he's Good because he chose to be. Alignment isn't a shackle you have to abide by no matter what unless you're a god when it becomes free for all, it's more of a descriptor. If he changed his mind and wanted to be mean about it, he could. But Heironeous is one of the first gods. If he had a crippling weakness in the form of arrogance, some Devil would have converted him eons ago, trough force or manipulation. Unless he decided to change on his own accord before that. Still an Alignment change, no matter how you want to twist it.

The latter part I have to agree with, but why do you insist of even Good Deities acting despicable? I understand you can, but what's the point? Don't we have enough *beep*s already? D&D is, even with all the angels flying around, is already a lot darker than the real world. Do you guys play a horror campaign or something similar?
Besides, it doesn't make sense. I mean, seriously, if even the patrons of Heaven would be such pricks, every good person with decent mind stats would stop worshipping gods altogether. And they would be right. If the difference between Good deities and Evil deities is marketing, there is just as next to no difference between Heaven and Hell. The Seven Heavens would fall without mortal support of course, but no outsider would care for the D&D equalient of World War era Russia, working economy be damned. And our 'Russians', the angels? They help gods on their own accord. That is, in your world, they don't. So your so-called paladin, his few friends and a couple of misguided worshippers would eventually had to stand against the infinite horde of demons and worse, the politics of Hell, while the other remaining deities bicker, angels sigh over the pointlessness of their existence as the essence of their homeplane changes fuel while they save kittens or something just for the heck of it, and the mortals silently wait until their overlords decide which of them will abuse their souls for all eternity to know who they have to suck up to. I'm not having it, thanks.

But I guess it would be moot if the angels were on a different standing with deities. Or if fiends were made out of cheese, whatever. You want to homebrew a horrible, horrible world, or a world where reality is based on misconceptions because nobody thought out what would happen in the setting? Go right ahead! Just don't expect most people to like it. Or the gods, at the very least.

 

[Omegaxicor]

I see what you mean but you seem to misunderstand a key point (and I'm not quite sure what you mean by Gods being arrogant means the world is a Horrible world) the Good gods are not evil they are good but with their power the "mortals" become small and as [MENTION=21432]Samloyal23[/MENTION] said "Gods typically assume mortals should be grateful for any chance to serve them or interact with them, no matter how perilous it may be..." which IS slightly darker than I would have put it but it is the basic premise, not caring about mortals is not evil if you are a god and ALL gods are like that Good/Evil/Neutral (except maybe Pelor since he has Caring as part of his portfolio but wanting his followers to care and caring himself are two different things)

I think our difference of opinion is based on the fact you believe (or rather in your games) Heironeous was a mortal until he ascended to Godhood and in my games he was born/made/became a God from the start, Vecna and whoever else that is stated as once being mortal are "Lesser Gods" aka Demigods with the power to grant spells and to be worshipped (which gives them the power to grant spells) but they don't affect the cosmic landscape as much/easily as Heironeous and Nerull (mostly I chose this because Gods cannot be maimed, if he was really a god Vecna would have reclaimed his eye and hand or regrown them)

 

[Greenfield]

Does a deity think he or she is better than the mortals they deal with? Absolutely not!

They know that they are.

The question is, is it arrogance to think that when it's demonstrably true?

To a deity, mortals, even the longer lived ones, are ephemeral. They come, they strive mightily, and then they fade away. Human heroes write their names and exploits across the sky in letters of fire.

For 30 years or so.

After that they've moved from their brash youth (early 20s) into their middle years, and the flames of youthful energy have begun to burn down to the comfortable embers of age.

To a deity who has been around for thousands or millions of years, an who reasonably expects to be around for millennia more, those scant few decades of sturm and drang might be entertaining, but they're brief, and there's always some other brash young hero ready in the wings.

And heroes have such a nasty habit of dying young. Sometimes several times. For a being whose consciousness spans multiple planes and hundreds of human lifetimes, it's probably hard to keep track of these things. Like all the sub plots in a soap opera, you look away for a moment and you can lost the point of the entire thing.

So if a deity considers you expendable, even a good deity, it's because to them, you really are. You'll be dead soon enough anyway, whether you die in glorious combat, or from a bad case of gout in your old age. The difference is only a few decades, and if a human life span is short to a deity, that fraction of a lifetime is even shorter.

We have a seldom spoken of rule, a view of how the gods view the mortal realm.

Gods seldom fight directly. Somebody could actually get killed if they did that.

Instead they play "The Great Game". The rules are simple. The playing field is the world as we know it. A challenge will be issued by one side or another, sometimes directly, sometimes implicit. Each player will choose their pieces, sort of like chess. Co-opt a king and his kingdom, a few bishops, a knight or two, a few castles, and oh, don't forget the pawns. Lots and lots of pawns.

Drop a ring in a mountain? Pull a sword from a stone? The gods will pick their cause, and each will send their pieces into battle, sometimes by subtle manipulation, sometimes by more direct means.

Now the simple fact is, the gods could take that ring and hit Mt. Doom from half a continent away, nothing but net. They could also reach in and pick up their pieces whenever they fall, stand them up, wind them up and send them back into the fray. They could sweep the opposing game pieces from the board with one wave of their hand.

But that's cheating. If a god cheats by directly interfering with the quest, it licenses the opposing power to interfere as well, and because they have that open license they're probably going to interfere bigger than the cheater did.

So believe me, you don't want things to get so desperate that only an act of god (or goddess) can save the day. And you definitely don't want your god to be the first one to break that rule.

On the other hand, you love it when the other side cheats first. Unless, of course, you happen to be the poor schmoe on the spot when the hand of an angry god crashes down on the game board, upsetting all the pieces.

Now any given god is probably "playing" a dozen games at once, some for major stakes and some penny-ante. A daring deity might arrange so that different quests cross paths, hoping to tip the scales of one by drawing aid from his other team. But that's risky, since it might leave his A team facing both the oppositions A team and their C or D team at the same time.

Ever wonder why it seems that your quests are the only thing happening in the world? It's because the gods want to keep the play clean.

Ever wonder why there is the occasional star that falls from the sky? It's because some deity or other decided to take a direct shot at an opponent, instead of taking it to the playing field.

And if you ever wonder why it seems like your character is a mere pawn in somebody else's scheme, it's because that's exactly what he or she is.

 

[Dozen]

I think our difference of opinion is based on the fact you believe (or rather in your games) Heironeous was a mortal until he ascended to Godhood and in my games he was born/made/became a God from the start, Vecna and whoever else that is stated as once being mortal are "Lesser Gods" aka Demigods with the power to grant spells and to be worshipped (which gives them the power to grant spells) but they don't affect the cosmic landscape as much/easily as Heironeous and Nerull (mostly I chose this because Gods cannot be maimed, if he was really a god Vecna would have reclaimed his eye and hand or regrown them)

Oh, no, quite the contrantry. I agree with you; on this, at least. Heironeous was either born at the dawn of time(as written in holy texts) or simply became when enough people believed in his existence. There is no reason to think or source which suggests Heironeous was a mere mortal man. And since the latter option is... kinda cheesy, I prefer the former whenever possible.
Vecna is a Lesser God, btw, not a Demigod(not the same thing). Zagyg IS a Demigod, but it all boils down to their Divine Rank, not their origin. And Vecna, well, I don't think he cares about his hand and eye in the slightest. But if he did and he still missed those chunks of him after some years, I'd say yes, he obviously can't get them back. Nobody said Lesser Gods are any of a big deal, and he's not exactly famous for having friends who could provide him with (or are) decent healers. Then again, he is a Wizard/Cleric, and even mortal clerics could patch up a dead body(there is a spell for that, right?), so maybe he's just fine the way he is.

 

[Omegaxicor]

I don't know who Zagyg is (I assume he is from a campaign setting) but I thought Demi-God was part Human as Vecna is but I don't know how D&D uses those terms.

Well Vecna is a God of Secrets maybe he secretly has both his eyes and hands and their are several of each artefact

but it seems you agree with me about everything except that being arrogant is part of a gods job description (and I accept that not everyone will agree with me but my players always have) which is an interesting point, in your campaigns Gods act like parents to trillions of souls through out the world?

EDIT: after doing research (typing it into Google) I do remember Zagyg...