D&D 5E Changes in Interpretation

Just to point out the obvious, the whole purpose of playing many of the story games is to actually, y'know, tell a story....together. Most of them shift a lot of creative burden away from a central "GM" simply because that's the point. Trusting or Distrusting the person who would have been GM simply doesn't enter into it.

Yes, i do understand the purpose. However, I also have seen people and some designers state that they prefer certain story games, because they don't like giving power to the a central authority and rail against the standard GM/Player paradigm. Not everyone, but there are many that share that attitude. The last one that I read a few weeks back (I believe it was at RPG.net) stated that his group has several GMs and he mentioned liking certain story games, because he does not like waiting around for his turn to GM- it was a control issue thing in his own words.

and, then, as mentioned there is the Burning World rule that allows players to override the GM.

And, while, I tend not to like most story games that I have seen, there are some that I do like, Lady Blackbird being the main one. I also like a game called Rogue Swords of the Empire (a.k.a, Barony, a.k.a Conrad's fantasy)) a precursor to the current story based games. There are some Apocalypse World hacks that I am interested trying (specifically, Monsterhearts and Monster of the Week). I also admire the design or Leverage and Marvel from Cortex +, but they work too much at the metagame level for me (edit: though I am starting to come around).

This is especially obvious in that some story games don't even have a GM or similar figure with final narrative authority (that authority is often the subject of the gameplay itself.)
See my comment above the player that does like giving up GM authority.

When people play D&D in a heavily "story" manner, they are usually doing a lot of relatively freeform roleplaying or storytelling that occasionally falls back to D&D for combat or an inspirational attribute/skill check as well as "color" for the setting of the story. D&D generally doesn't do anything to inhibit such creative endeavors, but it rarely does anything to add to the experience.

True, but I also see some narrativist games replacing certain traditional mechanics (e.g, traditional attributes) with alternatives claiming it focuses players on themes/motivations. Personally, I don't see it doing anything that I haven't seen and done with certain games with traditional mechanics. It just appears awkard and/or gimmicky and distracting.
 
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There was a rumor that World of Darkness surpassed D&D in it's last death throws in the early 90s. That rumor proved to be false. I've heard of no other game even getting close until Pathfinder. Now in fairness, Pathfinder is D&D so D&D still isn't really getting beat, it just split.

Not in the US, but in my country, in Spain, WoD outsold D&D. I'm not sure about the rest of Europe
 

I think pre-4e D&D actually does a lot to inhibit narrativist play: too much fiddly, exploration-focused action resolution (eg 1 min/level and 10 min/level spell durations) that get in the way of clean scene framing and push in the direction of unstructured task resolution rather than conflict resolution. D&D combat has always been conflict resolution in a mechanical sense, but has not always been the best vehicle for introducing and addressing fictional stakes.

This strikes me as untrue save for idiosyncratic styles of play - presumably any ones dependent on highly discrete scene shifts and frames. For us, the use of normal time durations helped set the pace of the narrative and helped determine when to shift scenes. When the wizard's polymorph self spell was about to run out, we shifted scenes from the war council he was spying on as a small creature to the scene with the rest of the PCs establishing the safehouse base of operations in the enemy city.

Frankly, I don't see why I should give you a pass on statements like this any more than 4e fans give a pass to critics' complaints about dissociative mechanics hindering immersion, 4e's encounter/skirmish focus hindering story development and role playing, or any other similar position.
 

I also have seen people and some designers state that they prefer certain story games, because they don't like giving power to the a central authority and rail against the standard GM/Player paradigm.

<snip>

The last one that I read a few weeks back (I believe it was at RPG.net) stated that his group has several GMs and he mentioned liking certain story games, because he does not like waiting around for his turn to GM- it was a control issue thing in his own words.
What has that got to do with Burning Wheel, which has pretty traditional allocations of player and GM roles?

as mentioned there is the Burning World rule that allows players to override the GM.
As was also mentioned, there is no such rule in Burning Wheel. Burning Wheel has a very tradtional allocation of player and GM roles, and for good reason: the game, as written, depends on strong GM authority over backstory and scene framing.
 

This strikes me as untrue save for idiosyncratic styles of play - presumably any ones dependent on highly discrete scene shifts and frames. For us, the use of normal time durations helped set the pace of the narrative and helped determine when to shift scenes. When the wizard's polymorph self spell was about to run out, we shifted scenes from the war council he was spying on as a small creature to the scene with the rest of the PCs establishing the safehouse base of operations in the enemy city.

Frankly, I don't see why I should give you a pass on statements like this any more than 4e fans give a pass to critics' complaints about dissociative mechanics hindering immersion, 4e's encounter/skirmish focus hindering story development and role playing, or any other similar position.
To the best of my knowledge, based on your posting history on this site, you don't play narrativist D&D, and have little interest in doing so. If that's not true, I'm interested to hear what you've done, and especially how you've used AD&D or 3E for this purpose!

In case it's not clear, by "narrativism" I mean story now; Eero Tuovinen gives a nice summary of what he calls "the standard narrativistic model" of RPG play:

1.One of the players is a gamemaster whose job it is to keep track of the backstory, frame scenes according to dramatic needs (that is, go where the action is) and provoke thematic moments (defined in narrativistic theory as moments of in-character action that carry weight as commentary on the game’s premise) by introducing complications.

2.The rest of the players each have their own characters to play. They play their characters according to the advocacy role: the important part is that they naturally allow the character’s interests to come through based on what they imagine of the character’s nature and background. Then they let the other players know in certain terms what the character thinks and wants.

3.The actual procedure of play is very simple: once the players have established concrete characters, situations and backstory in whatever manner a given game ascribes, the GM starts framing scenes for the player characters. Each scene is an interesting situation in relation to the premise of the setting or the character (or wherever the premise comes from, depends on the game). The GM describes a situation that provokes choices on the part of the character. The player is ready for this, as he knows his character and the character’s needs, so he makes choices on the part of the character. This in turn leads to consequences as determined by the game’s rules. Story is an outcome of the process as choices lead to consequences which lead to further choices, until all outstanding issues have been resolved and the story naturally reaches an end.

4.The player’s task in these games is simple advocacy, which is not difficult once you have a firm character. (Chargen is a key consideration in these games . . .) The GM might have more difficulty, as he needs to be able to reference the backstory, determine complications to introduce into the game, and figure out consequences. Much of the rules systems in these games address these challenges, and in addition the GM might have methodical tools outside the rules, such as pre-prepared relationship maps (helps with backstory), bangs (helps with provoking thematic choice) and pure experience (helps with determining consequences).

These games . . . form a very discrete family of games wherein many techniques are interchangeable between the games. The most important common trait these games share is the GM authority over backstory and dramatic coordination . . . which powers the GM uses to put the player characters into pertinent choice situations.​

You can play a game in this style without using extremely hard and overt scene-framing (although hard and overt scene-framing can be part of the style). But as the references to the GM's role and the power that the GM needs to exercise indicate, it is important to this style of play that the transition from scene to scene be constrained primarily by metagame considerations. Whereas a focus on the minutiae of ingame times and spell durations, detailed and long-term healing rules, keeping track of provisions, etc (that is, just the sort of things that Gygax emphasises in his PHB and DMG), tends to make considerations of ingame causation, rather than metagame considerations, the principal drivers of transition from scene to scene.

In the particular example of play you give, it's not clear to me what the point of the scenes was, and who was responsible for framing them. (I'm not questioning that they had a point. But it's not clear to me, from what you've said, what it was.) As I've tried to indicate, scene framing in the sort of play I am talking about has a certain function - provoking dramatically and thematically significant choices from the players, via their PCs - and this is achieved via a particular combination of techniques - GM authority over scene framing, in combination with faithful adherence by all at the table to the action resolution mechanics, once the scene has been framed. (4e incorproates these techniques via some of its mechanical departures from earlier versions of D&D: changes to spell durations, healing rules, the importance of mundane equipment, etc; its emphasis on the encounter, designed according to metagame priorities, as the primary unit of play; its use of the skill challenge as a non-combat scene-based conflict resolution mechanic; etc)

These two techniques, of course, can't be combined in a system in which action resolution typically spills outside the context of a particular scene. This is a further reason why the sorts of mechanics I've talked about, which encourage a focus on continuous exploration in play and make that continous exploration relevant to action resolution, get in the way of narrativist play.

A nice example of the sort of approach which prioritises exploration and fidelity to ingame causation, at the expense of the metagame-driven framing of scenes, is this one, to do with time keeping and scene framing:

Metagame time is rarely discussed openly, but it's the crucial one. It refers to time-lapse among really-played scenes: can someone get to the castle before someone else kills the king; can someone fly across Detroit before someone else detonates the Mind Bomb. Metagame time isn't "played," but its management is a central issue for scene-framing and the outcome of the session as a whole. . .

Gygax's text [ie his DMG] perfectly states the Simulationist view of in-game time. It is a causal constraint on the other sorts. . . it constrains metagame time. It works in-to-out. In-game time at the fine-grained level (rounds, seconds, actions, movement rates) sets incontrovertible, foundation material for making judgments about hours, days, cross-town movment, and who gets where in what order. I recommend anyone who's interested to the text of DC Heroes for some of the most explicit text available on this issue throughout the book.

. . .

Concrete examples . . . [of] Simulationism over-riding Narrativism

. . .

The time to traverse town with super-running is deemed insufficient to arrive at the scene, with reference to distance and actions at the scene, such that the villain's bomb does blow up the city. (The rules for DC Heroes specifically dictate that this be the appropriate way to GM such a scene).​

It's not entirely clear to me, in your actual play example, how the time on the wizard's polymorph spell was tracked, at the table. But it seems to me that you may be giving an instance of precisely the use of durations measured in ingame units of time to determine scene-framing, that contrasts with a metagame driven approach to scene framing.

Which goes back to my opening comment: I have never got the impression from you that you are interested in or aiming at narrativist D&D. But, as I said, if I am wrong about this, tell me more!

(There are other, secondary elements of the episode you describe that I am not sure about from what you say. If the passage of time was counted out or calculatd minutely, with measurements being made on maps, and speeds being calculated, and optimal paths being determined - perhaps with all the other players declaring actions for their PCs in that intervening time - then that is precisely the sort of distraction from the focus on the scene and what is at stake in it that I am stating is an obstacle to narrativist play. My own experience of this sort of obstacle to narrativist play comes from both GMing AD&D and GMing Rolemaster.

Conversely, if the time was more-or-less handwaved, such that it would have made no difference had the spell duration been "one scene" or "one local spying mission", then it seems that the gametime duration is perhaps serving just as some colour over the top of a different mechanic. I have experienced D&D run this way, as a player rather than a GM, and it tends to exhibit that degree of GM force that I also identified, upthread, as inimical to narrativist play.)
 

What has that got to do with Burning Wheel, which has pretty traditional allocations of player and GM roles?

As was also mentioned, there is no such rule in Burning Wheel. Burning Wheel has a very tradtional allocation of player and GM roles, and for good reason: the game, as written, depends on strong GM authority over backstory and scene framing.

Then I stand corrected. I was basing it on a comment by Lord Mhoram. I have no interest in Burning Wheel based upon what I have read about scripting, the combat mechanics and duel of wits in various reviews. It just did not sound like my cup of tea.
 

The only rule in BW that comes even close to what Lord Mhoram describes here is that, if a player declares an intent and task for his/her PC, and the relevant skill or ability check succeeds, then the GM must abide by the result of the check. That is no different from any other system in which the GM is not empowered just to disregard the action resolution mechanics (ie in my book, any decent system)..

I remember it as being Burning Wheel - by Luke (I forget the last name). A rule that said that the players could if they decided they didn't like a GMs ruling, override it. I may have it out of context though. I remember a big kerfluffle at RPG net about, and looking into the rulebook at a local gameshop, and saw that, and thought "Nope not for me".

The big thing I remember was "Players consent can override the GM" in there somewhere.

If I have it out of context then I apologize for giving it a bad rap. I do know just from reading the rules that I would hate to play in the game, but then I am fairly hardcore sim - and about the furthest you could be from nar.
 

I think pre-4e D&D actually does a lot to inhibit narrativist play: too much fiddly, exploration-focused action resolution (eg 1 min/level and 10 min/level spell durations) that get in the way of clean scene framing and push in the direction of unstructured task resolution rather than conflict resolution. D&D combat has always been conflict resolution in a mechanical sense, but has not always been the best vehicle for introducing and addressing fictional stakes.

Whoa now, D&D combat is conflict resolution? 4e has some new method for addressing Narrativist stakes and premises that isn't in previous editions?

Do tell.

I would say D&D's traditional combat engine(s) are basically task resolution, even if fairly abstract ones at various times and iterations. (Part of its problem, IMO, is its inconsistency in this regard.) 4e, AFAICT, made it pretty explicitly so. Of course, this may be an open question;
Something I haven't examined: in a conventional rpg, does task resolution + consequence mechanics = conflict resolution? "Roll to hit" is task resolution, but is "Roll to hit, roll damage" conflict resolution?
-Lumpley

4e's mechanics may provide a lot more "story" and setting elements (color, etc. usually denigrated as "fluff"), however I don't see anything in 4e that does this in a particularly "Narrativist" manner. When I was running 4e, all the Narrativist stuff in my game was precisely as "extra regulas" as it was in previous editions.

Out of combat, I'm not sure 4e gets any better. I mean really not sure. The Skill Challenge mechanism presented in my DMG is something of a train wreck. It starts of sounding like some kind of Conflict Resolution mechanic, but then immediately explodes into a series of abstract (and to some extent, arbitrary) Task Resolutions. Authority for stakes-setting and framing still resides with the DM. (Of course, I only ran 4e's first iteration, my group blew up before any major changes came along. I'm not sure how 4e does it all now, but I haven't heard anything substantial about it vis-a-vis Narrativism.)

Now, having said all that. I'm not sure how important it is for a game to be Narrativist, if that game wants to call itself D&D. Story happens in all three modes of play, and the D&D community seems mostly willing to let story happen as it may from the results of the unstructured task resolution. Narrativism, AFAICT, doesn't really require much in the way of rules...so long as the participants want to engage in that aspect of roleplay. I figure that, by now, most Narrativist-minded D&D-ers have figured out how to do it with or without the rules, and a module that supports it with FATE points or the like is a common-enough patch.

To overcome these problems, as you hint at in your post (or seem to, to me), requires a signficant suspension of the action resolution mechanics. Which, at least traditionally, is a privilege conferred only on the GM. Which means that the game comes to depend very heavily on GM force, not only in scene framing but at every point of action resolution. Which is pretty inimical to narrativist play, I think.

Oh yeah. Definitely. Part of the issue with D&D is that a heavily Narrative DM can't really run it without ignoring it. I always just leave the Narrative conflicts/premises/etc. out as an invitation. When the players pick it up, I try to run with it. Trying to push it really doesn't work within D&D. The sad part is watching part of group try to pick it up, and the other part just walk past it. That can lead to quite a bit of grumpiness.
 

This strikes me as untrue save for idiosyncratic styles of play - presumably any ones dependent on highly discrete scene shifts and frames. For us, the use of normal time durations helped set the pace of the narrative and helped determine when to shift scenes. When the wizard's polymorph self spell was about to run out, we shifted scenes from the war council he was spying on as a small creature to the scene with the rest of the PCs establishing the safehouse base of operations in the enemy city.

Frankly, I don't see why I should give you a pass on statements like this any more than 4e fans give a pass to critics' complaints about dissociative mechanics hindering immersion, 4e's encounter/skirmish focus hindering story development and role playing, or any other similar position.

I believe you hit it on the head though. The pacing in pre-4e is proscribed to you by the mechanics. The wizard cannot choose when his spell runs out (in 4e, it would run out when the "encounter" - presuming an encounter duration - ended). Pacing is entirely the purview of the mechanics. Monsters will randomly spawn X in Y chance every Z minutes in the dungeon regardless of what is actually going on in that dungeon. The wizards spell will last A*Level time period - thus necessitating strict time keeping.

A more narrativist approach does not permit the mechanics to dictate the pacing of the game. That wouldn't make sense for that type of game.
 

I believe you hit it on the head though. The pacing in pre-4e is proscribed to you by the mechanics. The wizard cannot choose when his spell runs out (in 4e, it would run out when the "encounter" - presuming an encounter duration - ended). Pacing is entirely the purview of the mechanics. Monsters will randomly spawn X in Y chance every Z minutes in the dungeon regardless of what is actually going on in that dungeon. The wizards spell will last A*Level time period - thus necessitating strict time keeping.

Of course pacing isn't entirely the purview of the mechanics. This isn't some kind of binary choice here. This is a spectrum with a variety of tools at my disposal. The spell durations in minutes, for example, provides one tool to determine timing and scene shifts but it's not the only one.
 

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