Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting] and Hive Minds?

[RUMBLETiGER]

I'm writing a campaign for fun, and wanted to introduce Formians (MMI p.108, think giant Ant) by having a small group of Solder Formians Charmed by a Phaerimm (FR Lost Empires, spellcasting monster) to advance the plot.

Which got me thinking, Formians have a low will save, nothing in their stat block to indicate immunity to Mind Effecting spells, nothing to say their saves might be based off of the controlling mind of a Myrmarch (think queen), but how would this work, if at all?

Would, the the above case of attempting to Charm a member of a hive minded species...:

1. The creature regards you as a friend, and is favorable towards your instructions as per the Charm spell.

2. The controller of the Hive Mind gets to make the save for the individual being controlled.

3. Every individual creature within the Hive Mind gets to make a save. If every single one of them fail, you have charmed the entire colony and they all consider you favorable for the duration of the spell.

...and so on.

So, lets say you successfully cast your spell and it's case # 1, because nothing in the description says you can't. Can the controller of the hive mind attempt to regain control in the next round? The text is silent on how the Hive mind control is initially established, it simply gives a range for which it's maintained.

What is the right way to approach this, as per RAW? And it doesn't stop here. What about Dominated members of Hive Minds? Compulsion spells like Suggestion?

 

[Dozen]

Hmm, well, since we must assume the formians are willingly under the control of the Hive and the ability is not listed as Mind-affecting, logic states there is no need to establish a connection of such strength. Formians are ultimately replaceable, and there are lots and lots of high level casters out there from whom they should be afraid of enough in case somebody cast a Mind-affecting spell on a single one of them.

In short, it would only have an effect on the formian for safety reasons. It's possible he'd remain connected to the Hive unless another formian notices he'd been Charmed or Suggested(is that even a term?), and the community "plugs him out". Had you used Dominate, you wouldn't have enough time to command him not to tell the Hive what you just did to him, so Charm might be the most effective approach, given it doesn't matter if he can sell you out when he simply won't.

 

[frankthedm]

Charm isn't control. The ant you've charmed will be charmed and the hive mind may or may not notice something is going on depending on what the rules for the hive mind state.

Chances are as soon as you charm the bug, it will be psychically telling the hive mind we have good ally here with me! to which the queen will be very suspicious of. First she'll tell it to attack, and when it won't because of the charm, she'll order the formian to kill itself, which it will, barring an order from the charmer.

The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable.

Good luck making the suggestion sound reasonable if it goes again't the hivemind's orders.

Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.

Every order that goes against the queens commands is going to be against the formian's nature.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Charm isn't control. The ant you've charmed will be charmed and the hive mind may or may not notice something is going on depending on what the rules for the hive mind state.

Chances are as soon as you charm the bug, it will be pychicly telling the hive mind we have good ally here with me! to which the queen will be very suspicious of. First she'll tell it to attack, and when it won't because of the charm, she'll order the formian to kill itself, which it will, barring an order from the charmer.
Good luck making the suggestion sound reasonable if it goes again't the hivemind's orders.

Every order that goes against the queens commands is going to be against the formian's nature.

I think you're catching on to my dilemma. Charm was the spell I was most uncertain of. If you befriend an individual who's also part of a larger group, who becomes your friend? If the larger Hive Mind does not become your friend, how does that affect the interactions with the individual?

With a Dominate I could see actually seizing control away from the Hive Mind as a possibility. Charm, I'm not so sure about.

 

[jefgorbach]

"Hive Mind (Ex): All formians within 50 miles of their queen are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flat-footed, none of them are. No formian in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are."

The unstated implication is the hive-mind's collective "instantly" compensates and thus effectively undoes whatever mental/sensual condition any particular formian-unit incurs, thus the charm/domination should only last a single round (provided those affected are within 50-miles of their Queen.

Perhaps a solution would be for the Phaerimm to target Myrmarch (which, unlike the lower castes, are clearly defined as self-directed individuals) and/or have your affected formians isolated beyond the 50-mile limit and thus susceptible??

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

"Hive Mind (Ex): All formians within 50 miles of their queen are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flat-footed, none of them are. No formian in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are."

The unstated implication is the hive-mind's collective "instantly" compensates and thus effectively undoes whatever mental/sensual condition any particular formian-unit incurs, thus the charm/domination should only last a single round (provided those affected are within 50-miles of their Queen.

Thanks, I probably should have posted exactly what the effects of the Hive Mind were, I appreciate you putting the data up, and making the dilemma clear. Yes, for the purpose of my campaign, it can be assumed the Formian is within 50 miles of the Myrmarch.

But as has been mentioned, is it possible that a Charmed Formian might see the caster as an ally, perhaps in it's mind as another Formian, and cooperate with certain requests? Like "Attack THOSE guys specifically" or "Climb up here with me".

Perhaps a solution would be for the Phaerimm to target Myrmarch (which, unlike the lower castes, are clearly defined as self-directed individuals) and/or have your affected formians isolated beyond the 50-mile limit and thus susceptible??

Having the Myrmarch Charmed would allow the Phaerimm to become incredibly powerful, this would not suit my purpose for this campaign. But that would be an awesome idea for something in the future, and I'll store it in the back of my mind. As for over 50 mile isolation, the entire campaign will take place within a smallish region, so not an option really.

 

[jefgorbach]

hmmm a case could be made flanking and flat-footed are conditions applicable only to the formian(s) in the immediate encounter area (ie the group), implying such spells work normally until those affected rejoin those unaffected.

IWO having encountered a formian, you could Charm it to guide/fight for you - and it would willingly do so until you encounter additional formians at which time it automatically becomes uncharmed.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

hmmm a case could be made flanking and flat-footed are conditions applicable only to the formian(s) in the immediate encounter area (ie the group)...

I don't think so. IMO, the wording is pretty clear, if there are ten thousand Formians within a 50 mile radius, and you manage to flank 9,999 of them, no flanking bonus for you.
Poor Rogues.

As a result, this whole awareness thing is pretty serious. If you Charm one, and it is convinced you are a friend, and it is the only one that sees you, I'm inclined to think the entire Hivemind would perceive you as a friend, assuming you don't draw the attention of the Myrmarch who's running the show. Instructions such as "Go Here" and "Attack This" would be typical for a Formian.

If there are a group of Formians, and you only Charm one, then perhaps if one befriends you and the others attack, that would break the Charm.

What I'm really wondering, and I think this falls upon the Roleplay, Is what sort of things would capture the attention of the ruling mind of the Myrmarch across so many solders and workers. Assuming the caster doesn't do anything particularly interesting or expose the Formians to anything new, would this fly under the radar of the overarching Hive Mind? I'm not sure.

I think I need to investigate other Hive Mind creatures and see if there's any info that clears this up.

Anyone know of any other Hive Mind creatures?