D&D 4E Versatile Duelist and Weapon Finesse

[Nikosandros]

How does this feat interact with the Thief class feature?

You gain proficiency with all one-handed, military heavy blades. If a rogue power requires you to wield a light blade, you can use that power with a one-handed heavy blade and can also deal your Sneak Attack damage while using a one-handed heavy blade with that power.

When you make a melee basic attack, you can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack roll and the damage roll. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with light blades, hand crossbows, shortbows, and slings.

Technically, weapon finesse isn't a power, but a class feature. A strict interpretation would therefore be that the two don't work together.

However, the feat was published in Dragon 381, published in November 2009, way before Essentials appeared.

My inclination is to make the combination work, so that thieves can benefit from the feat like scoundrels. What's your opinion?

 

[Obryn]

Weapon Finesse doesn't restrict itself to specific melee weapons, so they work together just fine.

-O

 

[Wednesday Boy]

I think the combination works fine even with a strict interpretation. From what I can tell none of the Thief's powers require them to use a light blade so that whole power excerpt doesn't matter. The Theif's sneak attack does require the use of a light blade, a hand crossbow, a shortbow, or a sling so they can take advantage of the exception that Versatile Duelist allows.

 

[Ferghis]

Technically, weapon finesse isn't a power, but a class feature. A strict interpretation would therefore be that the two don't work together.
...
My inclination is to make the combination work, so that thieves can benefit from the feat like scoundrels. What's your opinion?

I agree with your interpretation and your inclination. From what I can make out, the thief can start using a longsword or the broadsword. Sounds fair.

 

[Nikosandros]

Weapon Finesse doesn't restrict itself to specific melee weapons, so they work together just fine.

I think the combination works fine even with a strict interpretation. From what I can tell none of the Thief's powers require them to use a light blade so that whole power excerpt doesn't matter.

My doubt is about the +2 damage bonus that weapon finesse grants. Does it apply to a heavy blade if the thief has versatile duelist?

 

[Obryn]

Ahhh. Technically not, but it doesn't matter much. You're better off with a rapier anyways. So if he wants a longsword or a broadsword, I don't think it's a big deal to let that feature work for it.

But it does not by RAW.

-O

 

[Rune]

I agree with your interpretation and your inclination. From what I can make out, the thief can start using a longsword or the broadsword. Sounds fair.

Ahhh. Technically not, but it doesn't matter much. You're better off with a rapier anyways. So if he wants a longsword or a broadsword, I don't think it's a big deal to let that feature work for it.

But it does not by RAW.

-O

I do believe that a human (with that extra feat) could start out with a bastard sword, which is distinctly superior to the rapier...unless you can't sneak-attack with it. (Of course, even if you could, I doubt that using a bastard sword effectively would be worth two feats.)

 

[Nikosandros]

Ahhh. Technically not, but it doesn't matter much. You're better off with a rapier anyways.

Well, a rogue has to expend a feat anyway if he wants a rapier. Damage and proficiency bonus are the same and longsword is versatile, so that's +1 to damage when wielded two-handed (rogues don't use shields).

Light blade expertise gives +1 extra damage per tier with CA, but the +2 to AC vs OA is also interesting (and longsword can get +1 to damage all the time, without spending an extra feat).

 

[Nikosandros]

Well, a rogue has to expend a feat anyway if he wants a rapier. Damage and proficiency bonus are the same and longsword is versatile, so that's +1 to damage when wielded two-handed (rogues don't use shields).

Thinking more about this, I now have doubts. When wielded with two hands, a longsword might count as a two handed weapon, thus negating sneak attack. Is that the case?

 

[Ferghis]

Thinking more about this, I now have doubts. When wielded with two hands, a longsword might count as a two handed weapon, thus negating sneak attack. Is that the case?

I don't think so. Versatile Duelist's benefits seem to be written well enough to avoid this problem. Even if you can wield it two-handed, the longsword is still classified as a one-handed heavy blade, so it triggers the benefits described in the feat.