Converting True Dragons

[freyar]

It's not really big enough to have the tail sweep, is it?

I'm thinking CR 7 for this. Definitely not as good as the behir (despite the somewhat better breath weapon), but seemingly as good as a remorhaz.

 

[Cleon]

It's not really big enough to have the tail sweep, is it?

It's big enough if we say it's big enough!

Sure, a standard dragon doesn't get a tail sweep at Large size, but this isn't a standard dragon.

I'm thinking CR 7 for this. Definitely not as good as the behir (despite the somewhat better breath weapon), but seemingly as good as a remorhaz.

That seems about right.

A Behir's full attack damage is a lot better once it gets its Constrict & Rake started: average 73 hp if all its attacks hit vs. 46 hp for the Albino Wyrm, and the Behir has a better attack roll to boot. That doesn't include Swallow Whole damage, which is approximately the same for both.

An Albino Wyrm does have better AC and spell resistance, but it also has 77% the hit points of the Behir.

So, let's make it CR 7 then.

 

[freyar]

Well, it's not a standard dragon, but there's nothing to suggest that it's stronger than a normal dragon or has a bigger tail than a normal dragon, so I'd rather not give it the "extra" tail sweep. Besides, we'd have to re-write the normal tail sweep, or it would only be able to sweep Fine critters anyway. I'd rather leave it off.

Treasure sounds like items only, but I'd still go at least standard if not double, since they are dragons after all.

 

[Cleon]

Well, it's not a standard dragon, but there's nothing to suggest that it's stronger than a normal dragon or has a bigger tail than a normal dragon, so I'd rather not give it the "extra" tail sweep. Besides, we'd have to re-write the normal tail sweep, or it would only be able to sweep Fine critters anyway. I'd rather leave it off.

It's got a Constrict attack with its tail, suggesting its tail is longer and more flexible than normal.

Treasure sounds like items only, but I'd still go at least standard if not double, since they are dragons after all.

Why do you say items only, I, U also has coins, gems and art objects:

2E AD&D Treasure Types:

Type I:100-600 platinum or electrum pieces: 30%
2-12 gems: 55%
2-8 art objects: 50%
Any 1 magical items: 15%



Type U:
2-16 gems: 90%
1-6 art objects: 80%
Any 1 magical item: 70%


I'd be fine making it double standard.

 

[freyar]

Well, based on other critters, it seems to me that constrict vs tail slap vs tail sweep are functions of entire design. Constrict does have something to do with Str as well as tail agility, as presumably does a tail slap attack. But the extant critters with the tail sweep are all big enough that their tails can make an effective area attack. For a Large critter to be able to do that, the tail would need to be at least as big as (not just as long as) the entire body. Just as an example, Large mariliths have a tail slap and constrict, and they're stronger and more dexterous than our albino wyrm, but they don't have a tail sweep.

As for the treasure, I was basing my assessment on this quote in the original text:

Unlike almost all other dragons, albino wyrms do not collect treasure that they cannot carry; the need to hunt outweighs the need to gather baubles into a lair. However, they are intelligent enough to recognize and use magical treasures, and often wear jewelry on wingtips, claws, and tail.

It just didn't sound like they'd keep coins or goods. I don't object too much to double standard, though, but we'd need to change the flavor to give them a lair if we do.

 

[Cleon]

Well, based on other critters, it seems to me that constrict vs tail slap vs tail sweep are functions of entire design. Constrict does have something to do with Str as well as tail agility, as presumably does a tail slap attack. But the extant critters with the tail sweep are all big enough that their tails can make an effective area attack. For a Large critter to be able to do that, the tail would need to be at least as big as (not just as long as) the entire body. Just as an example, Large mariliths have a tail slap and constrict, and they're stronger and more dexterous than our albino wyrm, but they don't have a tail sweep.

If we left out the Tail Sweep we'd probably have to add it in again in an "Advancing Albino Wyrms" subentry, which I don't really fancy.

As for the treasure, I was basing my assessment on this quote in the original text:

That still says they sometimes wear multiple items of jewelery, which are goods in 3E terms. I suppose we could do standard coins or half coins plus double goods & double items.

 

[freyar]

On the two points:

I'd much rather have an Advancement entry with adding in the tail sweep than give them an ability they shouldn't have in the first place. And I'd actually be fine leaving it off the advanced versions, too. I don't much fancy doing full age categories.

As for treasure, the original text reads to me that they don't really have a lair (at least not with any treasure) and don't carry around useless goods. My reading of 3e rules is that "items" means "magic items" (at least according to the treasure tables), which leads me to suggest no coins, no goods, and lots of items.

 

[Cleon]

On the two points:

Isn't this three points?

I'd much rather have an Advancement entry with adding in the tail sweep than give them an ability they shouldn't have in the first place.

So what are you proposing, giving them Tail Sweep when they advance to Huge?

I don't much fancy doing full age categories.

That's all right, you know I would end up doing a Cleon Special with age categories regardless.

As for treasure, the original text reads to me that they don't really have a lair (at least not with any treasure) and don't carry around useless goods. My reading of 3e rules is that "items" means "magic items" (at least according to the treasure tables), which leads me to suggest no coins, no goods, and lots of items.

Actually, 3E "items" includes "mundane items" such as alchemical compounds and nonmagical equipment, including masterwork stuff. Those are only listed on treasure for monsters from CR 1 to CR 6, so unless we make the Working Wyrm CR 6 it wouldn't qualify.

It does say they wear jewelery though, with is definitely "goods" in 3E terms. Well, unless it's magical jewelery, of course.

 

[freyar]

I don't really need them to get Tail Sweep at Gargantuan (not Huge), but I wouldn't object, either.

Yes, at low CRs "items" means mundane items. But in any case, the jewelry in the original monster's treasure sounds like it's supposed to be magical to me. They want utilitarian stuff. But if you really insist, we can go with some goods too.

 

[Cleon]

I don't really need them to get Tail Sweep at Gargantuan (not Huge), but I wouldn't object, either.

So which are you after, Tail Sweep at Huge or Gargantuan?

Yes, at low CRs "items" means mundane items. But in any case, the jewelry in the original monster's treasure sounds like it's supposed to be magical to me. They want utilitarian stuff. But if you really insist, we can go with some goods too.

Well some of the goods are utilitarian as well, such as telescopes and alchemical items - though I have trouble visualising an Albino Wyrm using some of them!