Looking for RPG system for campaign.

[Blackbrrd]

Level 3 to 10 is my favorite in dnd, or more specifically, 5 to 8. The math, complexity and resource management is just right.

 

[Razjah]

You should look into E6. It can easily be changed to E8 or E10 to lock into the specific power level you are looking for.

While I love Savage Worlds, I do enjoy running E6 games I love the level 2-6 play when I want to play D&D/Pathfinder.

 

[griffonwing]

First, a big thanks for posting all that info, I really do appreciate it.

Now, when does it go from crunch to clunk? I am not a fan of opposed rolls and the weapon speed and second-by-second combat actions just seems a bit much? I read this: http://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/downloads/HMb_KODT_Combat_Example.pdf and it looks a bit too detailed. 8 pages to describe 15 seconds of combat vs 4 goblins and an orc is... well, too much.

Yeah, I know. And even reading the rules as a whole makes you think "Holy crap, that's a lot of stuff". However, the 8-pg comic illustration PDF was describing "in detail" many options that could be performed by the players. After a session or two, the rules click. The way the system was designed just makes sense.

Most of the players on the KCo forums, even the new players, can go through a combat session in a bout 20-30 minutes, as opposed to the hour or two of a similar dnd combat.

But yeah, there are a lot of RPGs out there that could very well be more suited to your style of gameplay. As long as you are having fun is all that matters. Im just offering one more

 

[Blackbrrd]

Hmm... The fight did seem to be a pretty basic low-level fight, with nearly no special abilities used, just the standard hit-it-until-dead. A similar DnD fight would probably be faster, with a lot less rules and rolls involved.

I am a bit intrigued by Hackmaster though, it does appeal to me in many ways. Actually in a lot of ways. It feels like a very good simulation of combat with how reach matters, how movement is done, the weapon speed, shield damage, pain threshold and so on.

The problem with it as I see is my not-so-detailed-oriented players. Having to roll 5-6 times to resolve one attack (because of attacks due to longer reach, shield damage, pain rolls, counter attacks, etc) looks like it's gonna take a while. I don't think they are up for rolling pain rolls themselves, or having their shields bashed to pieces, but I might be wrong.

 

[Li Shenron]

Features I am looking for:
- slow progression
- low to medium magic
- a good set of fantasy monsters
- not gritty
- not clunky

I haven't stated it particularily clear in my first post, but I want to run a fantasy campaign with elves, dwarves, goblins, dragons, evil necromancers and dumb ogres.

Level 3 to 10 is my favorite in dnd, or more specifically, 5 to 8. The math, complexity and resource management is just right.

Before you look into a completely new system, have you thought about simply house-ruling your favourite edition of D&D?

If you want to have a complete game with its own books so that you feel "safe", not pressured with working on rules yourself, it is understable, especially if your players are skeptic about house rules and trust published books better.

But reading your "wanted features" makes me think that you don't really need to change much to get them out of D&D.

1) Start from "low to medium magic". I think your already know your favourite level range so use that as a starting point, just assume for now that you'll simply play D&D (your favourite edition) starting from THAT level, core only. Then you only need to check if some spells in that level range have problems for you (e.g. the usual polymorphs, teleports, fly...) and simply remove them from the game if they feel too high-magic.

2) Check the number progression across those levels. Just assume that your campaign will not go beyond that last level 8 or 10. Is this resulting progression "short" enough? E.g. in 3.x going from level 3 to 10 means that character BAB will increase max +7, and the max different between any two PCs will be +5. Is this "flat enough"? If it's not, shorten the range.

3) Once you know your max level according to the cap you want on magic and on numbers (including numbers differences between PCs), don't worry too much about what happens after your level cap until you actually reach it. But you can declare that after that level cap, levels stop progressing and (if you want) PCs get additional features one by one. For example you can use the E6 rules, except that instead of "6" you can put your chosen level cap.

4) Monsters: I think you already have nearly all iconic monsters before level 10 (remember that 3.x gives you plenty of low/mid-CR dragons). If some of them is missing, you can work on re-fluffing another monster from the appropriate CR range and swapping a couple of its features with the wanted features of the iconic monster. It's not a big work, and once again do it only when you need it!

5) I think grittiness depends mostly on equipment. If you level cap is low enough, even 3.x can sustain significant deviations from standard character wealth (but 3.x is absolutely not gritty so probably it's already ok for you!).

So all this essentially doesn't really look like house-ruling much. You can just keep using the same rules for character creation, exploration, combat... those features you want don't require you to change them.

If you want more levelling up within the range (maybe you like the features of the level range, but not the fact that it's got only 5-7 levels?), you can dedicate some work into splitting up each level into smaller increments.

I'm suggesting all this because if I wanted the features you listed (none of which depend on the mechanics of combat or other challenges), I would not take the pains of learning a completely different game, I would look simply into adjusting the game I am most familar with.

 

[Charles Dunwoody]

I haven't stated it particularily clear in my first post, but I want to run a fantasy campaign with elves, dwarves, goblins, dragons, evil necromancers and dumb ogres.

I'd recommend the Radiance RPG available for free here:
http://www.radiancerpg.com/

The game is D20 fantasy but strips out a lot of the bloat. It uses ideas from all editions of D&D and Pathfinder.

Magic items are not expected for characters. It has elves, dwarves, goblins, dragons, necromancers, and ogres of different types (plus more). You can strip out the steampunk simply by not using one chapter. The math is flattened as well and explained as part of the rulebook.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Some interesting points there Li Shenron. I have thought about doing something like you suggest, but I do like getting new stuff and level 3 - 8 goes by pretty quickly. I did think about doing something similar to what you suggest, but using 4e instead. Maybe houseruling 3.5e would be a better idea? Hmm...

Now, it does look like Kravell's suggestion has some merit, it sounds like a houseruled 3.5. I looked at it briefly, but skipped along because of the steampunk setting, but if that's basically a single chapter I can skip, it might be a good idea. Just looked at it now and it does seem to scale by +0.5 attack/level. Might be little enough that it's workable.

 

[Charles Dunwoody]

Some interesting points there Li Shenron. I have thought about doing something like you suggest, but I do like getting new stuff and level 3 - 8 goes by pretty quickly. I did think about doing something similar to what you suggest, but using 4e instead. Maybe houseruling 3.5e would be a better idea? Hmm...

Now, it does look like Kravell's suggestion has some merit, it sounds like a houseruled 3.5. I looked at it briefly, but skipped along because of the steampunk setting, but if that's basically a single chapter I can skip, it might be a good idea. Just looked at it now and it does seem to scale by +0.5 attack/level. Might be little enough that it's workable.

You wanted creatures as well and the Radiance Masters Guide has 130 for a $13 hardcover/PDF combo. Here are a couple of quotes about the design of the game from the RMG to help you think about your options:

3. Progression is flatter. Since every character level adds the same number of points, a 10th level PC is 5x the power of a 2nd level PC. Similarly, spells and abilities increase linearly, rather than geometrically. This means a monster’s level matters less too.
4. Powerful abilities are deferred. Spells such as Scry and Teleport are deferred to the highest levels of play and made expensive to allow GMs plenty of room to control basic elements of an adventure such as travel and mystery.
5. Abilities are tightly grouped. Classes such as cleric and wizard that are often broadly based are divvied up into narrowly-themed classes. Similarly, “feats” from the d20 system are siloed into themes and recast as “awards”.
6. Martialists & spellcasters are matched.
All PCs are built from the same point system. Also, martialists have more potent melee abilities while magic users’ more powerful spells are deferred to higher levels. Everyone can shine at all levels.
16. Magic items are less important.
You can forego magic items and, except for potions, few will likely notice. PCs earn less gold per level, magic items remain costly, and a PC’s wide set of options meets the need for uniqueness.
17. Magic items work differently.
A magic item isn’t a fount of power. Rather, it is a container for abilities that the owner gains and may employ with a commensurate cost in vitality.
18. You can up technology or exclude it.
Electrotech, steamgear, and such are present but not baked in to the game. You can easily exclude technology by excluding the Electrotech ability and Chapter 9: Electrotech from the RPG.

 

[griffonwing]

Hmm... The fight did seem to be a pretty basic low-level fight, with nearly no special abilities used, just the standard hit-it-until-dead. A similar DnD fight would probably be faster, with a lot less rules and rolls involved.

I am a bit intrigued by Hackmaster though, it does appeal to me in many ways. Actually in a lot of ways. It feels like a very good simulation of combat with how reach matters, how movement is done, the weapon speed, shield damage, pain threshold and so on.

The problem with it as I see is my not-so-detailed-oriented players. Having to roll 5-6 times to resolve one attack (because of attacks due to longer reach, shield damage, pain rolls, counter attacks, etc) looks like it's gonna take a while. I don't think they are up for rolling pain rolls themselves, or having their shields bashed to pieces, but I might be wrong.

Maybe your 'not-so-detail-oriented players' have simply not played a game where their options weren't limited to 6-second segments. How many times have you heard them say stuff like:

1) Doh! I shouldnt have done that. Now I have to wait my turn again!
2) But I 'should' be able to (insert action here), it just makes sense!
3) or anything else regarding strict prohibitive actions during combat.

Every combat session is excitement because it plays out cinematically. And even then, combat is over more quickly than DnD.

Also, note that it takes a HEFTY blow to break through a shield.

But in all honesty, start the game with NO advanced rules. No combat maneuvers, no ToP (Threshhold of Pain) checks. Then, once they get used to the basic combat, introduce 1 or 2 advanced rules every couple sessions. It will not only help the players, but also you, to learn the system second nature.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I must say, this is a fun thread, everybody being very positive and helpful!

I am intrigued by Savage Worlds, Radiancerpg and Hackmaster. Now, I do wonder what version of Savage Worlds to get.
This one: http://www.peginc.com/shop/savage-worlds-deluxe-pdf/
Or this one: http://www.peginc.com/shop/savage-worlds-deluxe-explorers-edition-pdf/
What's the difference? Page size/count?

Regarding the "I have to wait my turn" thing, Hackmaster has that too, if you have used your weapon, you have to wait x seconds to use it again. You basically wait your turn. You have the counter attack stuff and so on, but that basically only makes it take 2x as long to get those x seconds over with.