Reconcile This - A DM Question

[Water Bob]

Open, easy, terrain. Three characters: A Fighter, a Ranger, and a Thief.

The Fighter and Ranger stand next to each other. The Fighter is a bit of a hot head and doesn't like the nature lovin' Ranger.

The Thief stands 25 feet away, not involved in the conversation. He is, though, the brother of the Fighter, and the two are natural allies.

For simplicity, none of the characters wear armor, and none have any weapons but their fists. Each is a 1st level character, and all have the same DEX score. None have any special initiative Feats or abilities.

The player playing the Fighter finally decides to take a swing at the Ranger. Now, everybody rolls initiative, and we go into combat rounds.

The Fighter rolls a total initiative of 4.

The Ranger's nish is 13.

And, the Thief (25 feet away) goes on 23.





What I'm having trouble with is that we've got two people in a heated discussion that goes to blows, but before the Fighter can throw his punch, the Thief, 25 feet away, covers that distance and beats the Fighter to the first attack.

How do we reconcile that with logic and believability?

Am I missing some rule that would modify initiative or somehow skew events to a more logical order (which would be the Fighter and Ranger get into a fight before the Thief joins at the end of the round).

How do I make the rules believable for my players?

 

[Kinak]

If the rogue isn't surprised, he knew that punch was coming. He's heading over, knowing that blows are about to be exchanged, and getting that party started.

If the rogue doesn't know the blow is going to be thrown beforehand, he's surprised. The fighter (and ranger if the ranger didn't know it was coming), get to act in the surprise round. The rogue can act at his initiative in the first normal round.

Your example requires the rogue to be taken off guard by the attack (surprised) but acting in the first round (not surprised). That's where you're running into problems.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[JustinAlexander]

What I'm having trouble with is that we've got two people in a heated discussion that goes to blows, but before the Fighter can throw his punch, the Thief, 25 feet away, covers that distance and beats the Fighter to the first attack.

You need to resolve surprise. In 3E I use Sense Motive for these kind of "social stand-off" scenarios.

In this case, if the Thief makes his Sense Motive check he's not surprised by the fighter throwing the punch: He actually starts moving before the punch is ever thrown.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Fighter throws the first punch, everyone else is surprised. Then the initiative rolls matter.

 

[Sunseeker]

I would argue that you would need two surprise rounds.
First, the fighter, because the Ranger sure as heck didn't see it coming.
A second one, in which both the fighter and the ranger act.
And then actual combat, in which the rogue gets to act.

I believe that the ranger is surprised by the fighter, and the rogue is surprised by both of them.

 

[Water Bob]

Surprise.

Lots of responses mention this. But, by the rules, Surprise does not apply because all combatants are aware of each other at the start of the round. Surprise only occurs when a combatant is not aware of a foe at the start of the round.

Plus, a Surprise round in 3.5E is limiting. A character with surprise can only perform a standard action--which basically means that he can attack and not move or move (by changing his Standard action in for a Move action) but not attack.

The only way the Thief can move and attack while in a Surprise round is by using the Partial Charge--which he could do in this circumstance.

But, since all combatants are aware of each other at the start of the round, there is no Surprise round....

 

[Water Bob]

By the way, I cleansed the example so that answers would not focus on character class advantages or anything else outside of the core rules. I probably should have made all three characters Fighters, in hind sight.

The original example was written by another poster on another forum for a 3.5E Clone game. That site doesn't get a lot of traffic, and I was intrigued by the question, so I repeated it here.

The original example features two men at a bar, a PC and an NPC Gambler, where the PC notices the Gambler is cheating, and therefore takes a swing at him. A second PC is 25 feet away, at the bar, ordering a drink.

I cleaned up the example so that I wouldn't digress the discussion into lines about terrain (the table and chairs and drunks in the way) and other lines of discussion that muddies up the focus on the game rules.

I'm interested in how best to use the game rules to cover the situation I outlined in the OP.

In that other forum, one thought I had was to use the Advantaged/Disadvanted rule to place a penalty modifier on the 2nd PC's (The Thief in the OP) initiative throw--to account for the disadvantage the 2nd PC (Thief) has in the distance that he's got to cross to get into the table fight (fight between the Fighter and Ranger). But, upon reflection, that's a bad idea and bad use of the rules becuse the Rule of Unintended Consequences flares up: Think of the impact that would have on Charges, besides the fact that the character is having his initiative penalized after his actions are chosen. Choice of action should not penalize nish unless the Ready Action or Hold Action is used.

So, I'm kinda scratching my head to figure if there is a better application of the 3.5 rules to apply to the situation outlined in the OP.

 

[Wiseblood]

Surprise.

Lots of responses mention this. But, by the rules, Surprise does not apply because all combatants are aware of each other at the start of the round. Surprise only occurs when a combatant is not aware of a foe at the start of the round.

Plus, a Surprise round in 3.5E is limiting. A character with surprise can only perform a standard action--which basically means that he can attack and not move or move (by changing his Standard action in for a Move action) but not attack.

The only way the Thief can move and attack while in a Surprise round is by using the Partial Charge--which he could do in this circumstance.

But, since all combatants are aware of each other at the start of the round, there is no Surprise round....

When did they become combatants? My answer would be when the fighter took a swing. Surprise still should apply. Before that swing they were simply there. Until the fighter has resolved his attack during the surprise round no one begins a round aware. The rogue can not even ready an action since combat has not begun. He can observe the situation as it escalates and decide to act preemptively, but he can not react before action.

 

[dd.stevenson]

Nothing in this story says the fighter's first punch has to deal damage.

So:

1) The fighter swings at the ranger but the blow fails to tell [no roll--just story telling here].
2) Begin rounds.
3) Even before the fighter's swing is complete, the rogue is moving toward the fighter. He takes his action.
4) The ranger laughs at the fighter's weak attempt and kicks him in the nuts.
5) The fighter, enraged now, comes at the ranger full bore.

Of course a lot of DMs would consider giving the fighter a surprise attack, RAW be danged. The surprise rules just weren't widely adopted as written. (I've never been in a group that plays 3.x surprise by the book.)

 

[Water Bob]

When did they become combatants? My answer would be when the fighter took a swing. Surprise still should apply. Before that swing they were simply there. Until the fighter has resolved his attack during the surprise round no one begins a round aware. The rogue can not even ready an action since combat has not begun. He can observe the situation as it escalates and decide to act preemptively, but he can not react before action.

This is an interesting take--one that I've thought about myself but haven't shared in a post. It's kinda like a lawyer trying to use a different meaning to a definition in a court case. "Your honor, my client did put his lips on the marijuana cigarette, but he did not inhale. Therefore, my client did not smoke the illegal substance."

As controversial as it might be, it is a damned interesting look at the rules: The three characters are not combatants at first, but there is a point at which they do become combatants. Therefore, a Surprise round, by the rules, is legal and called for in this instance shown in the OP example.

As the Surprise rules state, a Spot or Listen check can be made by the Thief, with success determining whether he's aware that the Fighter and Ranger are at odds, about to go to blows. With success on the check, the Thief is included in the Surprise round (and can perform a Partial Charge, but is otherwise limited in action by the Surprise rules). If the Thief fails, then he doesn't recognize the Ranger as a threat to his brother, the Fighter, and therefore is on the ball and probably enroute to the table once initiative is thrown.

I think that's the answer I'm looking for, unless anyone here disagrees with the definition on combatants and awareness of them for the use of Surprise.

Thoughts on this?