D&D 5E Stripping 5e to its core

[Sacrosanct]

@Sacrosanct

Just so we are all clear, what direction are you looking to move this idea?

From the OP:


But later on you talk more about a primer idea:


As I see it (correct me if I am wrong, please) is:
1. Nothing new. You can take things away, simplify, or limit only. You will add, make complex, and build things up to 5E, but in the end it should be 5E or just 5E-like?? If only 5E-like, you have B&B which does this IMO.
2. Make default choices for the players which later on they would make in 5E. Such as using the default subclasses for the class tables. This could further include background choices, skills, equipment packages, even spell options.
3. Removing other player options like rolling for HP, maybe even rolling for abilities (scores or modifiers) and just using a starting array. Even the starting array could have a few pre-determined options for a class depending on the build goal.
4. Simpler rule options like side initiative. Consider ability proficiency variant instead of skills as an option.

For this thread, I actually wanted to hear everyone's ideas, even if they didn't fit my personal scope. Which succeeded! A lot of great ideas here. I am a fan of discussion, even for things that I may not personally be looking for. For my scope for my personal project, I was looking for ideas of what can be removed from 5e and still be relatively compatible in the same way that B/X is compatible with AD&D. So your points are largely accurate. As much as I'd love to put things in new (like making inspiration a shared party resource and something awarded to the side who wins initiative), that might violate the scope of being a primer. Also why I most likely will be going back to ability scores instead of just modifiers like B&B has now.

I have ideas on how to handle subclasses while keeping it to 3 or 4 core classes. And I have reminders to design it how players are playing today, and not how I played in the 80s or beyond (point buy or array over rolling for example). Backgrounds will not be there (outside of stat distribution, they are largely flavor and you don't need a rule for flavor). Stat bonuses will be class based--+1 to a key ability for the class, and a +2 based on the subclass/specialty you choose. But there will always be a choice of at least two abilities you can add it to. For example:

Warrior: choose to add a +1 bonus to either Strength, Dexterity ,or Constitution (maximum 18)
Paladin subclass (of the Warrior): choose to add a +2 bonus to either Wisdom, or Charisma (maximum 18)

(the above is just the most recent idea tumbling in my head; I'm not sold on it)

Original B&B had part of it's scope being a nod to b/x, both in aesthetic and in feel of play. Now that Shadowdark came out and filled that niche, I should focus on it being a basic version of 5e, so all those things that gave it an osr feel are to be removed. I can take say that I did an OSR basic 5e version before Shadowdark, but I have to be humble and say Kelsey did an amazing job, much better than me, at implementation of it

 

[ezo]

For my scope for my personal project, I was looking for ideas of what can be removed from 5e and still be relatively compatible in the same way that B/X is compatible with AD&D.

Then not really a primer so much as a "basic" edition?

Because things like FTD (3-4 core classes with archetype subclasses) certainly does not lean to "primer" to my understanding. I know you are not sold on this idea, but this is what I mean:

Warrior: choose to add a +1 bonus to either Strength, Dexterity ,or Constitution (maximum 18)
Paladin subclass (of the Warrior): choose to add a +2 bonus to either Wisdom, or Charisma (maximum 18)

Anyway, I look forward to seeing what direction you want to take it and will contribute what I can towards your goal.

 

[Faolyn]

The reason it sounds like nearly every game out there is that nearly every game out there tries to be like D&D.

<looks at vast array of games out there>

Really?

Out of curiosity, how is Monster of the Week definitely not D&D?

Well, it's a modern-day supernatural horror game in the line of Supernatural or Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Also, it's a PbtA game, and those have vastly different mechanics.

 

[Horwath]

The problem with using the 12 classes but not subclasses is the classes as base aren't balanced. There is a reason why subclasses for some classes are stronger than others.

So, it creates a bit of problem. I don't know if it would work removing all the subclasses, or just keeping one each like the SRD.

they had the chance to balance out classes with subclasses and have universal level progression for subclasses last year, but they blew it for "muh compatibilitah", that will last for a year when first splat books arrives like Tasha 2 or whatnot.

and with same levels and same power budget, there was a room for universal sub classes.

 

[ezo]

@Sacrosanct any progress? I just wanted to check in and see if you had given more thought to the goal:

5E primer (a rules/ content-lite introduction to 5E)

OR...

5E "basic" (akin to B/X for AD&D)

I'm probably going to have some free time this weekend and will give things some thought, I was simply curious if you've solidified your concept?

 

[Sacrosanct]

@Sacrosanct any progress? I just wanted to check in and see if you had given more thought to the goal:

5E primer (a rules/ content-lite introduction to 5E)

OR...

5E "basic" (akin to B/X for AD&D)

I'm probably going to have some free time this weekend and will give things some thought, I was simply curious if you've solidified your concept?

I've decided to go with primer, because I think that's the way to go. Much to my chagrin, however, because there are several things I'd like to simplify and make easier (like getting rid of spell slots), but that would cause confusion for someone going from B&B to full 5e.

But the reality is that Shadowdark does OSR b/x 5e. Even though B&B came out before Shadowdark, they did it really well and have the exposure. Rather than do that same theme, I think the path forward is to go with primer. Which means 4 core classes, each with a couple subclasses for the most popular 5e classes (for example, Wizard core class has evoker, necromancer, and warlock subclasses). They will be streamlined and simplified of course, but enough to give the experience and feel.

• Bonus actions out
• Everything is an ability check against a DC (attacks, skill checks, saves)--basically described as a d20 test. Under that is something like, "There are several types of d20 tests--attacking, attempting a task or skill, resisting a magical effect, trap, or poison, etc. for each, roll the d20 and add the ability bonus for the ability that the test calls for, and compare it against the Difficulty Challenge number (DC)." (I haven't finalized that wording, just throwing it out there).
• No defined skills (ability check instead)
• no backgrounds
• no feats
• team initiative
• no temp hit points
• no death saves
• Vision (you either see or don't see, no dim light, and darkvision has been removed from many species--it should be special and valuable).
• Max 10th level
• No multi-classing
• No CR (monsters have levels. it's more intuitive when a monster level is roughly the same power level of a PC of the same level).
• Armor and weapons are into groups: light, medium, heavy. All light armor have the same AC, all medium weapons do 1d8 dmg, etc.
• The +2/+1 ability is just to any ability, regardless of class or species--you just choose which two to add it to.
• Standard Array is default ability score method

Basically I want new players to only have to learn a couple mechanics, and strip those to the most basic functionality. I want it easy to learn with few fiddly bits to worry about.

Flexibility comes from options within the species/classes. It doesn't add any more mechanics or rules, but allows players to customize when they'd be using feats/backgrounds in full 5e. Rules don't have to be complex to offer flexibility, IMO.

For example, the simple dwarf entry:

Dwarf
Stout and solid, you are an imposing figure despite your shorter stature.

Speed: 30 feet
Size: Medium or small

Traits: Choose two of the following trait options:

• Armored Gain proficiency with light and medium armor.
• Disciplined Add an additional +1 bonus to your Wisdom (max 18).
• Direction Sense Always know the direction of north. Advantage on Ability Checks to detect secret or hidden passages, doors, and traps.
• Disease Immunity Immune to disease, both mundane and magical.
• Forge Child Gain resistance to fire damage.
• Giant Slayer Gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls against large-sized or larger creatures.
• Granite Skin When not wearing armor, add your Constitution bonus to your AC.
• Robust Gain 1 HP. Each time you gain a level, you gain an additional 1 HP.
• Tunnel Fighting +1 bonus to attack rolls when fighting with at least one solid wall or structure to your flank.

 

[ezo]

I've decided to go with primer,

I guess we just have different views/definitions of what a primer is then.

• Bonus actions out
• Everything is an ability check against a DC (attacks, skill checks, saves)--basically described as a d20 test. Under that is something like, "There are several types of d20 tests--attacking, attempting a task or skill, resisting a magical effect, trap, or poison, etc. for each, roll the d20 and add the ability bonus for the ability that the test calls for, and compare it against the Difficulty Challenge number (DC)." (I haven't finalized that wording, just throwing it out there).
• No defined skills (ability check instead)
• no backgrounds
• no feats
• team initiative
• no temp hit points
• no death saves
• Vision (you either see or don't see, no dim light, and darkvision has been removed from many species--it should be special and valuable).
• Max 10th level
• No multi-classing
• No CR (monsters have levels. it's more intuitive when a monster level is roughly the same power level of a PC of the same level).
• Armor and weapons are into groups: light, medium, heavy. All light armor have the same AC, all medium weapons do 1d8 dmg, etc.
• The +2/+1 ability is just to any ability, regardless of class or species--you just choose which two to add it to.
• Standard Array is default ability score method

All of this is fine (on the surface anyway) and steers towards what I would think of as a primer, but then this:

Dwarf
Stout and solid, you are an imposing figure despite your shorter stature.

Speed: 30 feet
Size: Medium or small

Traits: Choose two of the following trait options:

• Armored Gain proficiency with light and medium armor.
• Disciplined Add an additional +1 bonus to your Wisdom (max 18).
• Direction Sense Always know the direction of north. Advantage on Ability Checks to detect secret or hidden passages, doors, and traps.
• Disease Immunity Immune to disease, both mundane and magical.
• Forge Child Gain resistance to fire damage.
• Giant Slayer Gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls against large-sized or larger creatures.
• Granite Skin When not wearing armor, add your Constitution bonus to your AC.
• Robust Gain 1 HP. Each time you gain a level, you gain an additional 1 HP.
• Tunnel Fighting +1 bonus to attack rolls when fighting with at least one solid wall or structure to your flank.

is where you lose the "primer" label to me, anyway.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I guess we just have different views/definitions of what a primer is then.


All of this is fine (on the surface anyway) and steers towards what I would think of as a primer, but then this:


is where you lose the "primer" label to me, anyway.

I get it. That entry is not like 5e. But it's how I solve a conundrum. If I'm stripping out backgrounds and feats, how do I account for customization? To me that seems the best way because it doesn't add any complexity or rules. A super important part of the scope is to have just enough of the rules to "prime" a player for 5e. New and younger players should be presented with only the bare skeleton. At the same time, options and customization are core to the 5e experience (unlike b/x), so how is that accomplished?

 

[Tiberiusthedm]

I get it. That entry is not like 5e. But it's how I solve a conundrum. If I'm stripping out backgrounds and feats, how do I account for customization? To me that seems the best way because it doesn't add any complexity or rules. A super important part of the scope is to have just enough of the rules to "prime" a player for 5e. New and younger players should be presented with only the bare skeleton. At the same time, options and customization are core to the 5e experience (unlike b/x), so how is that accomplished?

Are you still thinking of modules that add complexity, or just one primer system?

Do you think it should go all the way to 10? I think after level 3 or 4 people would be ready to add in more of the game, or go straight to the full game at 5.

Do you plan for people to play character that start in B&B and continue the same characters into full 5e/5e2024?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Are you still thinking of modules that add complexity, or just one primer system?

Just the primer. A few optional rules at the back (individual initiative)

Do you think it should go all the way to 10? I think after level 3 or 4 people would be ready to add in more of the game, or go straight to the full game at 5.

For sure to level 10. Most of the fans of B&B prefer the simpler 5e system and have no plans to move to full 5e. I'd hate to cut them off at level 3.

Do you plan for people to play character that start in B&B and continue the same characters into full 5e/5e2024?

Not in the design. It would be a bit too wonky I think.