D&D 4E Dragon Mountain (4e conversion - complete!)

[Quickleaf]

I've made significant progress on the conversion since ENWorld was down...

With the whole "abducted by kobolds" thing, I'm leaning toward running it as a fight with kobolds using subdual tactics and KO poison.

With the "separated from party" issue, I agree that it can be done. It's seems like [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] , you guys were saying the DM needs to telegraph his punches a bit when it comes to separating the party? So it's not "save or separate", but "save...and then separate".

I've also worked up an elevation-view map in old school style to organize the various levels and areas ...

Compare this to the plan-view maps from the original module...

It's already a fairly non-linear dungeon. The only major changes I made are extending the chasm upward into another possible entrance (500-ft of spelunking madness!), and giving the dragon a secret route out. Thinking on it again, the dragon has an underwater escape route in the original module so perhaps this "flight path" is unnecessary.


EDIT: Tried uploading PDF attachment, but that doesn't seem to be working.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION], I'm not sure about your "save or" and "save then" distintion - I don't think I quite get it - but I would say "yes" to telegraphing.

It depends a lot on group dynamics, I guess, but I have found that increasing my meta-talk as GM - commentating on what's going on, what I'm hoping to achieve, why the PCs (and players) should be trembling in the boots! - increases rather than decreases the intensity of play, because the players have a clearer sense of what is at stake and realise that I'm doing it on purpose rather than just stumbling along in some shambolic fashion. But at the same time it also helps reduce resentment/upset because the players know I'm on top of things, rather than just faffing around and not caring about their experience in the game.

Does that make sense?


EDIT: cool map!

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] Yes, totally, communication is key. Especially in a complex mega-dungeon where the "player vs. DM" style tends to come out.

On a different note, I've been looking at some of the kobold chiefs as unconventional boss monsters (there are 12 kobold tribes in Dragon Mountain, each quite distinct). Since they're just minions it presents a fun challenge for a DM/designer, and really gets you thinking in a kobold's shoes (heh, not sure if that's a good thing ).

One example is Clan Gnarled Fang - they're whiny, pudgy, lazy, vicious but low morale kobolds who play skull-skull, making their home in the old Merchant's Quarter where they charge other kobolds for trading. As I thought of ways to use these guys it dawned on me: they are the perfect gelatinous cube trainers! I don't know why, it just clicked. So I decided their chief Harlichak would throw the ultimate gelatinous cube encounter at the PCs...thus I present Harlichak's Gelatinous Doom:

Harlichak's Gelatinous Doom (level 14, XP 4800)
24 kobolds (level 9 minion Skirmisher) Valued at 1/2 XP
Kobold chief (level 13 minion soldier, leader)
3+ gelatinous cubes (modified to be level 9 standard brutes' auto-engulf immobilized, restrained ,or stunned PCs, or PCs with nowhere to retreat to)
False-floor pit trap (level 13 lurker trap)
2 suspended alchemist's sparks (homebrew, level 13 lurker trap)

Taunting kobolds appear on either side of a passage the PCs explore, yelling and beating drums. Floating in front of both groups are bits metal - knives, belt buckles, flasks, helmets. These are the gelatinous cubes. All the yelling and drumming is how the kobolds have trained the cubes to do as they want.

If the PCs try to escape through a door out of the passage, they find it barred (opening outward) or stumble upon a gelatinous cube (open inward).

Somewhere along the passage, or perhaps along an escape route the PCs devise is a pit-trap with a gelatinous cube on the bottom.

Harlichak has "fed" the cubes alchemist's spark traps, which hang suspended as two separate spheres of volatile gas. When a cube dies, the spheres fall to the floor releasing their gases which react as an alchemist's spark (lightning damage and stunned until start of their next turn).

As a final trick, Harlichak has a potion of growth which he "feeds" to the cube nearest to him, causing it to double in size (elongate in the passage), be able to engulf 4 PCs at a time, and gain some temporary HP.

 

[Manbearcat]

@Quickleaf

I echo the above sentiments by @pemerton almost exactly. I'm not sure I get the jargon that you're using nor its juxtaposition. But I would say yes to telegraphing as well.

I think I would need to know the metagame elements of your groups' Creative Agenda. My table seems to play a lot like pemerton's. We do not try to hide metagame elements and we are all very overt about our usage of them. Given that our Social Contract has been firmly hashed out, our table has considerable transparency with respect to what we are trying to accomplish and how we are going to accomplish it. I don't know how explicit these things are at your table. My guess is that, perhaps, there you guys may be more averse to overt metagaming at the table for the sake of maintaining absolute attention (at all times) to your collectively Shared Imaginary Space.

For instance;

- You as a GM have the metagame interest of "kidnapping a PC" for the sake of inspiring fear (NOW) and layering tension throughout the course of the lair exploration culminating in the confrontation with Infyrana.

- How do you accomplish this? Loss of Exploration Skill Challenge equals abstraction within that lair exploration such that said failure means that a singular PC has gotten lost, fallen prey to some kind of trap which separates them from the group, <something else> that creates the circumstances for a potential kidnap to take place. This isn't DM Force. The resultant failure of the Skill Challenge leads to this conflict. However, you're not going to have a perfectly constructed time chronology and linear coupling of the result of the last Skill Check in the challenge to the scene of the potential kidnapping. Perhaps the Skill Challenge failure is bookended with something as innocuous as a failed Dungeoneering check to determine the origin or significance of some Dwarven architecture. Skill Challenge lost. An hour later the scene unfolds in whatever fashion is most functional or most fun. Perhaps the PC fiddles about and pulls a lever...WOOPS...down a chute they go, without so much as a sound, into somewhere not so good - kidnapping Combat Encounter ensues.

- Now how do you handle relaying the information of this scene to the PCs at the table? You could:

A) Hint at them beforehand, ominously through foreshadowing, what a horror getting lost could be in a place like this...and how easy it would be due to the disorienting nature of the tunnels, the bad lighting, etc, etc. Here, however, you still run the risk of trying to make your own Creative Agenda implicit (READ BETWEEN THE LINES YOU IDIOTS) and your players either not "getting it" or you not conveying information "on their current wavelength." This is where you will run into the problems that pemerton describes above.

B) Before the session, you brief your players on what is before them. You could vertly advise your players of this metagame interest that you have and what the stakes are in these exploration Skill Challenges (kidnapping combat encounter). They are firmly understanding of the stakes and what you're driving at when these things happen. And they can buy-in and understand that there is no DM Force going on here, thereby having both the tension of the stakes in the Skill Challenge and the resultant tension of handling the stakes if a failure ensues. Now that the metagame interests have been firmly and clearly established, you can then use A throughout the course of the game to establish tension/anxiety/fear within the framework of your fiction.

In the course of this thread, you've hinted at several things that would indicate that B may not work for your group. As such, you may be forced to go with A (and hope for chemistry, awareness, good communication skills and no mental fatigue from life to carry the day).

Finally, when you say "subdual tactics" do you just mean "narrating their attacks as efforts to subdue?" 4e doesn't have any "subdual damage" rules like 3.x. You don't have to go with poison or "hit to knock out" (although you can certainly narratively describe the kidnap combat encounter as such) as mechanical resolution of knocking out a PC. The rules are straight-forward:

Originally posted by Rules Compendium page 261
[h=1]Knocking Creatures Unconscious[/h]When an adventurer reduces a monster or a DM-controlled character to 0 hit points, he or she can choose to knock the creature unconscious rather than kill it. Until it regains hit points, the creature is unconscious but not dying. Any healing makes the creature conscious.
If the creature doesn’t receive any healing, after a short rest it is restored to 1 hit point and becomes conscious.

Simple enough. You can use "knockout" poison damage and describe the attacks as "effort to subdue", if you wish. In this scenario, HPs are just "consciousness points".

Also, Awesome maps! You've done an excellent job here. I hope your players know and appreciate the effort you've put into this. It is most admirable. You're clearly a good friend/DM.

 

[Quickleaf]

Now how do you handle relaying the information of this scene to the PCs at the table? You could:

A) Hint at them beforehand, ominously through foreshadowing, what a horror getting lost could be in a place like this...and how easy it would be due to the disorienting nature of the tunnels, the bad lighting, etc, etc. Here, however, you still run the risk of trying to make your own Creative Agenda implicit (READ BETWEEN THE LINES YOU IDIOTS) and your players either not "getting it" or you not conveying information "on their current wavelength." This is where you will run into the problems that pemerton describes above.

B) Before the session, you brief your players on what is before them. You could vertly advise your players of this metagame interest that you have and what the stakes are in these exploration Skill Challenges (kidnapping combat encounter). They are firmly understanding of the stakes and what you're driving at when these things happen. And they can buy-in and understand that there is no DM Force going on here, thereby having both the tension of the stakes in the Skill Challenge and the resultant tension of handling the stakes if a failure ensues. Now that the metagame interests have been firmly and clearly established, you can then use A throughout the course of the game to establish tension/anxiety/fear within the framework of your fiction.

In the course of this thread, you've hinted at several things that would indicate that B may not work for your group. As such, you may be forced to go with A (and hope for chemistry, awareness, good communication skills and no mental fatigue from life to carry the day).

I've usually done A fairly well. The general problem I've had with B with some of the players in this group is the answer to "what do you want out of this game?" is met with crickets followed by "uh, to have a good time...explore, play my character, kill some monsters, get treasure, you know, the usual." I will say that one very explicitly asked for a heist-style adventure, which I found refreshing! Alas, Dragon Mountain isn't set up as a heist, though I suppose with some creativity and collars of kobold-form...

Also telegraphing too much seems to rob the mystery of the campaign which some of the players have enjoyed in the past. They like to feel like they're both unwrapping a package and shaping the story themselves at the same time.

Finally, when you say "subdual tactics" do you just mean "narrating their attacks as efforts to subdue?" 4e doesn't have any "subdual damage" rules like 3.x. You don't have to go with poison or "hit to knock out" (although you can certainly narratively describe the kidnap combat encounter as such) as mechanical resolution of knocking out a PC. The rules are straight-forward:

Yes, the rules are straight-forward.

However, what I'm looking for are faster ways than HP to subude a PC which ratchet up the tension and provide a sense lf uniqueness to the encounter. Its not just another fight against kobold guerillas - these guys have an agenda to get one of us! Poison that leads to unconsciousness is one thematically appropriate way to do this (thanks to the kobolds' trained carrion crawlers).

Also, Awesome maps! You've done an excellent job here. I hope your players know and appreciate the effort you've put into this. It is most admirable. You're clearly a good friend/DM.

Thank you, that's very kind.

We'll see how they feel about me when they're deep in Dragon Mountain, nursing injuries, unable to rest, and trying to locate their kidnapped wizard.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] Btw, I kind of overlooked your awesome post about the various NPCs and converting the Amulet of Dragon Warding. Great post! It's the weakest part of the adventure, but your ideas almost made me sad not to be using it.

 

[Manbearcat]

I've usually done A fairly well. The general problem I've had with B with some of the players in this group is the answer to "what do you want out of this game?" is met with crickets followed by "uh, to have a good time...explore, play my character, kill some monsters, get treasure, you know, the usual." I will say that one very explicitly asked for a heist-style adventure, which I found refreshing! Alas, Dragon Mountain isn't set up as a heist, though I suppose with some creativity and collars of kobold-form...

Also telegraphing too much seems to rob the mystery of the campaign which some of the players have enjoyed in the past. They like to feel like they're both unwrapping a package and shaping the story themselves at the same time.

I understand. Through the course of my gaming "career", I've had various table dynamics and all manner of diverse Social Contracts and Creative Agendas. That diversity has pared itself away and basically honed itself to a coherent singularity. For the last 6 years I've had 3 players, all with the same Creative Agenda, Genre Expectations, etc. As such, we don't get what you've described above.

In my experience though, there will always be players at the table who implicitly shape the Creative Agenda, Genre Expectations and Techniques/System by the authority (implicit or explicit) granted to them by the other players. If the other players cede to them then you are naturally going to have a game tailored to their preferences.

The way I've always approached the more introverted, indecisive brand of players is to never ask them open-ended questions. Give them well-defined choices that they can relate to and go from there:

Genre Tropes/Expectations -

A) Star Wars/Indiana Jones
B) Lord of the Rings
C) Game of Thrones
D) Pirates of the Carribean

etc.


Getting into Creative Agenda is always a more difficult conversation. You can talk about PC stances, metagame transparency and agenda, etc...but in the end, you're usually just better off trying out different systems/mechanical resolution tools in order to discern their tastes as most folks can't extrapolate/thought-experiment/inductive reasoning their way into an informed opinion (Jefferson and the plow). After enough of that, you can typically have an informed discussion. However, like you said, plenty of players just want to sit down and have a Step on Up (Heavy Gamist) + a smidge of Right to Dream (Simulation) and kill bad guys, take their loot, fiddle with the setting and level up in a Shared Imaginary Space and rinse/repeat. If you use techniques (such as a transparent metagame) that is foreign to them it may be "jarring" (as folks like to put it). That being said, enough exposure to them and they might find that they're useful to the dynamics at the table. But, maybe not. Whatever works for you guys and I'm sure you know your table well enough by now.

So. You think you're going to go with A and then have a "PC lost > kidnap combat encounter" scene framed after a failed Exploration Skill Challenge? If you're good enough at it and your players are "tuned into the same collective frequency" then my guess is that you'll get just what you're looking for.

 

[Quickleaf]

However, like you said, plenty of players just want to sit down and have a Step on Up (Heavy Gamist) + a smidge of Right to Dream (Simulation) and kill bad guys, take their loot, fiddle with the setting and level up in a Shared Imaginary Space and rinse/repeat.

I'm not familiar with all the terms, but yeah that basically sounds like my current group.

If you use techniques (such as a transparent metagame) that is foreign to them it may be "jarring" (as folks like to put it). That being said, enough exposure to them and they might find that they're useful to the dynamics at the table. But, maybe not. Whatever works for you guys and I'm sure you know your table well enough by now.

Actually, I've got 2 new players at the table: one is a WotC rep and the other is brand new to tabletop RPGs. Then a couple will be joining in who I've only gamed with a handful of times before, we met on ENWorld / Google+ actually! So only 3 players I'm very familiar with.

My read on each player using the 4e DMG "player types" is something like:

Paladin: Actor, identifies with the LG archetype, uses his own name for his PC, the new guy
Bard/Warlord: Instigator mixed with a bit of Actor, the WotC rep
Hybrid Cavalier: Actor/Thinker, well-rounded player
?: Watcher/Storyteller/Explorer, took very thorough notes in the past
Wizard: Actor/Thinker, well-rounded player, good friend, into old school gaming
Barbarian: Hardcore Slayer, good friend, the more damage dice the better
Fighter: Thinker/Power Gamer/Slayer, friend whose play style seems to be maturing

So. You think you're going to go with A and then have a "PC lost > kidnap combat encounter" scene framed after a failed Exploration Skill Challenge? If you're good enough at it and your players are "tuned into the same collective frequency" then my guess is that you'll get just what you're looking for.

Yeah. Well, actually the getting separated and the kidnap encounter are two separate things. A roll of 11 on the Calamity Table indicates the party has become separated somehow. A roll of 12 indicates a combat encounter with kobolds who get a "kobold kidnapper" template giving them a K.O. poison and drag away trait which basically says "if they drag you out of your party's light source they've been abducted"...and wyrmpriests instead get the sleep spell. It just so happens that the kidnapping can lead to a split party.

 

[Manbearcat]

Yeah. Well, actually the getting separated and the kidnap encounter are two separate things. A roll of 11 on the Calamity Table indicates the party has become separated somehow. A roll of 12 indicates a combat encounter with kobolds who get a "kobold kidnapper" template giving them a K.O. poison and drag away trait which basically says "if they drag you out of your party's light source they've been abducted"...and wyrmpriests instead get the sleep spell. It just so happens that the kidnapping can lead to a split party.

I'm assuming this table is an Exploration Skill Challenge Failure Result Randomizer?

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm assuming this table is an Exploration Skill Challenge Failure Result Randomizer?

Wow, you've even got a name for it!

Exploration Calamity (d12)
1 - Kobolds ate my donkey! (horse, animal companion, familiar, hireling...)
2 - Kobolds stole my stuff! Add 4-8 kobolds with "kobold thieves" template to the encounter you rolled
3 - Kobolds poisoned my potions! (and my rations and water skins too!)
4 - Save the kobold!...wait what? Kobold spy sent to infiltrate PCs as "exile
5 - The mountain is trying to kill us! Thin air, sulfuric vents, smoke, and other environmental hazards cost the PCs healing surges according to an Endurance check
6-7 - There we were, cornered by kobolds! In addition to the random encounter you rolled, add a kobold horde (level 9 solo that's a pain in the ass)
8 - The walls are closing in! Players are given a choice: one of their characters (their choice who) is stricken with claustrophobia and tries to get out of Dragon Mountain, and in exchange for their role-playing gain a bonus action point or something
9 - We've fallen and we can't get up! PCs fall 40+ feet into a potentially unexplored area, using the map as a guideline
10 - We're trapped in Dragon Mountain! A passage is collapsed either do to fighting or kobold trickery, meaning the party needs to find a new way out
11 - Kobolds split the party!
12 - I was abducted by kobolds! Add 4-8 kobolds with "kobold kidnapper" template to the encounter you rolled