Natural Attacks- Bite and Headbutt in the same round?

[Larkas]

I can't, actually. It's just something that happened at a game I was playing once. A fellow player told our DM his full attack routine, and things just derailed from there. It didn't make any sense for him to be able to do that, but we weren't able to turn up evidence he COULDN'T do that. The DM ended up adjudicating the matter, saying that, regardless of what the rules said, or failed to say, it simply made no sense for him to use a weapon in each hand, attack with each one of them and STILL use his claws in the same attack.

I would actually like very much if anyone could provide some piece of ruling proving that that's impossible, as it's something that, even after all these years, just left a bad taste in our mouth.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I don't know anything about combinging natural attacks with manufactured weapons, however I've always understood that if you have a weapon in a clawed hand, you attacked with that weapon, and did not attack with the claw. I too would appreciate the text that clarifies this.

EDIT: Not a ruling, but an example. The Text For A Werewolf states that, when in Hybrid form, "A werewolf in hybrid form usually dispenses with weapon attacks, though it can wield a weapon and use its bite as a secondary natural attack."

While the Werewolf does posess 2 claw attacks, they do not use those claws in the same attack as weilding a weapon.


...My only interest is making the most of natural attacks on a full attack action.

Currently crafting a Shifter Psychic Warrior with dipping into Warshaper. The Powers Bite of the Wolf, Claws of the Beast and Tail of the Dragon all grant attacks at the lower levels, making 4 attacks by level 5. Form of Doom grants 4 tentacle attacks at higher levels (making a total of 8 attacks). Multiattack and Improved Multiattack make every attack at full BAB. Expansion power, Warshaper's Morphic Weapons, Expansion again to increase 2 size catagories, and Improved Natural weapon all add to the damage of various attacks. Various STR bonuses from Warshaper level 2 and Powers add to damage.

I just need to fit morphed horns in there someplace for a 9th attack and I'm groovy.

 

[delericho]

I can't, actually. It's just something that happened at a game I was playing once. A fellow player told our DM his full attack routine, and things just derailed from there. It didn't make any sense for hi\m to be able to do that, but we weren't able to turn up evidence he COULDN'T do that...

I would actually like very much if anyone could provide some piece of ruling proving that that's impossible, as it's something that, even after all these years, just left a bad taste in our mouth.

Okay, I've done some digging, and it appears that there is nothing specifically stating the rules on this one way or the other (though I would have to check the "Rules Compendium" when I got home to be absolutely sure.

However, it appears that all the examples where creatures combine natural and weapon attacks, the convention is that any limb used to make weapon attacks is then unavailable for making natural attacks - whether that's claw attacks, slam attacks, arm spines, or anything else on the limb.

That is, a werewolf using a longsword in one hand could make his weapon attacks, plus his bite plus one claw attack as well. The same werewolf using a greatsword could only make his weapon attacks plus his bite. (And a monk can be pretty horrible - because flurry of blows doesn't necessarily mean attacks with his fists, a werewolf monk could get a full flurry of blows plus his bite plus two claw attacks.)

I don't know anything about combinging natural attacks with manufactured weapons. My only interest is making the most of natural attacks.

Indeed. It seems that the answer to your question in the OP is that there is nothing stopping you from having both a gore attack and a bite attack. The only restriction is that each takes a move action to manifest.

Edit: The "Rules Compendium" doesn't say anything about combining natural attacks with a "normal" full attack.

 

[nijineko]

Can you provide a cite for that? Because the only creature I was able to find that combined natural and manufactured attacks into a single routine was the Werewolf Lord, and he explicitly gives up his 2 claw attacks in favour of a bastard sword attack.

the other example is the centaur with the sword and hoof strikes.

however, the case described by larkas is a different case than what i said. when adding natural attacks as secondary attacks to a full attack routine, you cannot use a limb that has already been used with a weapon.

from a real life perspective, it is entirely possible to combine sword attacks with punches, and i suppose you could perform a claw thrust if one had a clawed gauntlet or tiger claws or something. however, that is not what is supported in the rules.

 

[the Jester]

you don't need flurry to do so.

and yes, if you have the actual natural attacks, you can do both on a natural attack routine / full attack action.

I think you're wrong, though I don't have a cite.

I seem to recall some Sage Advice responses on combining a monk's flurry with a vampire's energy drain, and it specified that a flurry, since it doesn't use specific natural weapons but rather the monk's entire body, doesn't combine with natural attacks in any way.

However, as I said, I have no cite ATM.

 

[nijineko]

I think you're wrong, though I don't have a cite.

I seem to recall some Sage Advice responses on combining a monk's flurry with a vampire's energy drain, and it specified that a flurry, since it doesn't use specific natural weapons but rather the monk's entire body, doesn't combine with natural attacks in any way.

However, as I said, I have no cite ATM.

You are quite correct in that a vampire monk could not use the drain attack (which is attached to the slam attack) as part of the flurry. however, you CAN use a flurry as the primary attack and use the slam as a secondary or off-hand attack - thus activating the drain for that attack only - so long as the limb used for the slam is not used in the flurry.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Can you provide a cite for that? Because the only creature I was able to find that combined natural and manufactured attacks into a single routine was the Werewolf Lord, and he explicitly gives up his 2 claw attacks in favour of a bastard sword attack.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a and http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a specifically reference a monk being able to make his normal unarmed routine (which is treated as a manufactured weapon) and then do all the natural attacks as secondary natural weapons (so the attack is at -5 and they only add 1/2 Str to damage). If you can weed out the bad stuff (mostly the poster Aelryinth) from http://community.wizards.com/go/thr...ist_of_the_Forest?post_id=474713553#474713553 you'll notice that they exhaustively cite rules for making standard iterative attacks and then doing naturals at -5. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#manufacturedWeapons is the primary source for that and is listed and quoted in that thread.

If it's just about the part where attacking with a manufactured weapon and a clawed appendage wielding that weapon then... I actually can't find anything anywhere explicitly saying the claw attack can't be used in general. The Lycanthrope template does say in it that "A hybrid may attack with a weapon and a bite, or may attack with its natural weapons." but that only refers to the hybrid lycanthrope form and not every creature ever. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207742, http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=482.0, and other places do refer to not being able to use the clawed limb for a claw attack while wielding a weapon in the claw but I can't find the exact rules quote.

Well, I can find stuff saying you can't make a secondary claw attack after you've used the limb for a primary attack. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a has it with the paragraph "A creature can choose to treat its unarmed attacks as its primary attacks and its natural weapons as secondary attacks. (This method is normally used to add weapon attacks to a natural attack routine.) The creature must make all unarmed attacks with its primary limb, which prevents that hand from being used for a natural attack such as a claw or slam."

There's also a bit from the FAQ saying that a Lizardfolk can't make a claw attack along with, say, an attack with a longsword in the clawed hand.
What happens when creatures use their natural
weapons as secondary attacks along with a manufactured
weapon? For example, lizardfolk have two claws that also
serve as hands. What happens when they wield a onehanded
weapon in one hand and nothing in the other? Do
they lose both claw attacks in exchange for their attacks
with the weapon?

Wielding a manufactured weapon doesn’t prevent a
creature from using all its natural weaponry, provided that the
creature is using the full attack action and the additional natural
weapons are free.
The example lizardfolk can’t make a claw attack with the
“hand” that holds its weapon, although it does get to attack
with the weapon itself. But, if it’s using the full attack action, it
can use its other claw as a natural secondary attack (–5 to
attack rolls, half Strength bonus), and can also bite as a natural
secondary attack. In effect, the lizardfolk is using its normal
full attack routine with the manufactured weapon attack
substituted for one claw attack.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

So, a weapon in one hand cam make a Full Attack off BAB, and then if you have another claw, a bite, a tail, some tentacles, a headbutt, wings, you can use all those? Groovy.

Now I'm thinking a Half-Dragon, full BAB class, as many natural attacks as possible, Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

So, a weapon in one hand cam make a Full Attack off BAB, and then if you have another claw, a bite, a tail, some tentacles, a headbutt, wings, you can use all those? Groovy.

Now I'm thinking a Half-Dragon, full BAB class, as many natural attacks as possible, Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike.

Ever heard of the King of Smack?

 

[Wycen]

Hmm. My gut says no. I might allow it if the horns and bite did the same amount of damage.

When I think of a Full Attack, I think of Luke Skywalker in the climatic scene in Return of the Jedi when he's swinging his light saber repeatedly to beat down Vader and cleave his hand off.

But then again, a full attack also reduces your chance to hit with each iteration, so maybe not. Hmm.