D&D 5E Damage in this Packet is Totally Out of Control

[Falling Icicle]

My biggest concern with the new playtest packet is the ridiciulous damage inflation.

High level fighters do [W] + Str mod. + 6d6 + 20 damage. That's over 50 damage on average! This is beyond insane. Even Asmodeus, the archdevil, does about 14-20 damage with his spells and attacks, and he's one of the mightiest beings in the universe! (He does also have that stupid autokill if you have less than 150 hp thing, but I'll complain about that another time). And since Asmodeus has "only" 250 hp, the fighter can single-handedly kill him with 5 regular attacks, on average.

And it's not just fighters. While magic user damage is pitiful compared to martial characters in general, there are some notable exceptions. Meteor Swarm, if I read this right, shoots 4 meteors that each deal 12d6 damage. Thats 48d6 damage in total, double the damage it dealt in 3rd edition! Fireball, on the other hand, deals only 11d6 when cast as a 9th level spell. Meteor swarm deals enough damage to one-shot all but the mightiest creatures (and if the wizard really wants to, he can use maximize spell to one-shot ANYTHING in the Monster Manual that's not immune or resistant to fire and bludgeoning damage, guaranteed!)

I realise they think of martial damage dice and bonuses as a replacement for BAB and iterative attacks, but this is just ridiculous. They have such a great thing going with bounded accuracy in Next. Sadly, they've ruined it by replacing high to hit bonuses and extra attacks with insane damage and hp bloat. Why not apply the same principle behind bounded accuracy to damage and hp as well? Nothing makes a game feel more video-gamey and ruins immersion to me more than damage and hp bloat.

 

[Gorgoroth]

Yeah, I'd rather higher level enemies have 20 hp less and fighters not get their extra 20 damage, too. Also, the martial dice....this has been noted before....make the weapon choice insignificant, almost insultingly so. They should add 2x str mod to 2 handed weapons, 1x to regular weapons and none to light weapons. Maybe half mod when dual wielding with the feat.

Hopefully enough people will bring this up enough times for them to tweak these issues. 14 average damage for the top enemy is too low, as well.

I'm hoping they will get on-board with weapon's W as-martial damage dice and remove the extra +5/10/20 dmg bonuses tacked on that feel like an afterthought.

Make the greataxe wielder a thing to be FEARED!!!!!!

A Death = Adder, if you will.

 

[Bow_Seat]

I am definitely into the idea that [w] should be used for the martial damage die for something direct, like deadly strike, but a lot of the maneuvers use the die total as a method of determining a quantity of success, like for parry. If you use [w] for all of the martial damage die then a greataxe wielder would have the best parry possible, which maybe doesn't make the most sense.

What they could do is have the martial damage die be an unlisted die and specify what you roll in the maneuver description. For example, the deadly strike could just say "roll an extra [w] for each martial die you choose to use" whereas parry could have a static die size for all weapons so that certain weapons do not parry better than others.

Alternatively, something that I just thought of, is that they could really make weapons unique by listing a damage die and a parry die for each weapon. Or maybe an "offensive" "defensive" and "other" die for each weapon. Then the maneuver ability could say "expend any number of martial die to add that may die of your weapon's offensive die size and add the total to you attack damage." I'm just spitballing this last idea, I'm really not sure how it would look or if it would be too complicated.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

High level fighters do [W] + Str mod. + 6d6 + 20 damage. That's over 50 damage on average! This is beyond insane. Even Asmodeus, the archdevil, does about 14-20 damage with his spells and attacks, and he's one of the mightiest beings in the universe! (He does also have that stupid autokill if you have less than 150 hp thing, but I'll complain about that another time). And since Asmodeus has "only" 250 hp, the fighter can single-handedly kill him with 5 regular attacks, on average.

That level 20 Fighter also only hits Asmodeus 70% of the time causing his damage per round to drop to 35.35. It takes a little more than 7 attacks on average for a Fighter to deal 250 points of damage to Asmodeus.

And it's not just fighters. While magic user damage is pitiful compared to martial characters in general, there are some notable exceptions. Meteor Swarm, if I read this right, shoots 4 meteors that each deal 12d6 damage. Thats 48d6 damage in total, double the damage it dealt in 3rd edition! Fireball, on the other hand, deals only 11d6 when cast as a 9th level spell. Meteor swarm deals enough damage to one-shot all but the mightiest creatures (and if the wizard really wants to, he can use maximize spell to one-shot ANYTHING in the Monster Manual that's not immune or resistant to fire and bludgeoning damage, guaranteed!)

You are misreading it. The effects of overlaping clouds do not stack. Each creature in the clouds only make one save and only take 6d6 fire and 6d6 bludgeon or half that on a successful save.

The damage dealt to each creature is between 28.875(creature has a Dex bonus of +5) and 36.75(Dex bonus +0).

 

[FireLance]

That level 20 Fighter also only hits Asmodeus 70% of the time causing his damage per round to drop to 35.35. It takes a little more than 7 attacks on average for a Fighter to deal 250 points of damage to Asmodeus.

Actually, if he novas and uses Combat Surge, he can get two attacks and double the effect of his martial damage dice on successful attacks. A 20th-level fighter's hit chance is thus closer to 9%, and his damage per round (assuming a d8 weapon and 20 Str) is around 65 (105+1d8 on a critical hit). So, four rounds on average, expending all his daily uses of Combat Surge, but killing Asmodeus in the process.

Assuming the combat even lasts that long, of course - if the fighter is accompanied by a wizard with a Heightened (disadvantage on saves) Maximized sunburst (72 radiant damage and blinded for 1 minute on a failed save), a monk maximizing damage with Heart-Stopping Strike* (assuming Dex 20, 67 damage), and a rogue with sneak attack, which doubles the effect of his martial damage dice on opponents which he has advantage against (say, blinded ones), Asmodeus might not even get to act if he loses initiative.

* Path of Mercy indeed.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Actually, if he novas and uses Combat Surge, he can get two attacks and double the effect of his martial damage dice on successful attacks. A 20th-level fighter's hit chance is thus closer to 9%, and his damage per round (assuming a d8 weapon and 20 Str) is around 65 (105+1d8 on a critical hit). So, four rounds on average, expending all his daily uses of Combat Surge, but killing Asmodeus in the process.

He also needs to make a DC 16 Wisdom save or avert his eyes each turn (disadvantage on his attacks) unless he wants to suffer from Asmodeus' enhanced version of Frightened (disadvantage to attacks and checks plus move half speed, disadvantage on Str based saves, and deal minimum damage on strength based attacks for 1 minute). With a Wisdom of 14 he has a 65% chance of failing and averting his eyes would drop his accuracy down to 49%.

Assuming the combat even lasts that long, of course - if the fighter is accompanied by a wizard with a Heightened (disadvantage on saves) Maximized sunburst (72 radiant damage and blinded for 1 minute on a failed save), a monk maximizing damage with Heart-Stopping Strike* (assuming Dex 20, 67 damage), and a rogue with sneak attack, which doubles the effect of his martial damage dice on opponents which he has advantage against (say, blinded ones), Asmodeus might not even get to act if he loses initiative.

* Path of Mercy indeed.

Heightened would just negate Asmodues' Magic Resistance (advantage on saves versus magical attacks) and his 25 Con means he only fails the save 35% of the time. The Rogue has to sacrifice the advantage to double his martial damage dice and still has to deal with Asmodues' Authority.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

And it's not just fighters. While magic user damage is pitiful compared to martial characters in general, there are some notable exceptions. Meteor Swarm, if I read this right, shoots 4 meteors that each deal 12d6 damage. Thats 48d6 damage in total, double the damage it dealt in 3rd edition! Fireball, on the other hand, deals only 11d6 when cast as a 9th level spell. Meteor swarm deals enough damage to one-shot all but the mightiest creatures (and if the wizard really wants to, he can use maximize spell to one-shot ANYTHING in the Monster Manual that's not immune or resistant to fire and bludgeoning damage, guaranteed!)

They haven't stated if the damage from overlapping meteors stack. Which makes me think from their perspective it doesn't, but they haven't clarified if they stack. But some of the wording seems to suggest they only need to make one save, and only take damage once

 

[FireLance]

He also needs to make a DC 16 Wisdom save or avert his eyes each turn (disadvantage on his attacks) unless he wants to suffer from Asmodeus' enhanced version of Frightened (disadvantage to attacks and checks plus move half speed, disadvantage on Str based saves, and deal minimum damage on strength based attacks for 1 minute). With a Wisdom of 14 he has a 65% chance of failing and averting his eyes would drop his accuracy down to 49%.

Looks like the cleric will have something to do after all: casting protection from evil on the fighter.

Heightened would just negate Asmodues' Magic Resistance (advantage on saves versus magical attacks) and his 25 Con means he only fails the save 35% of the time. The Rogue has to sacrifice the advantage to double his martial damage dice and still has to deal with Asmodues' Authority.

There seems to be a slight discrepancy in the rules. The classes document states that clerics and wizards add their spellcasting bonus to the saving throw DCs of their spells, while the "How to Play" document only states that the ability score modifier is added. If the classes document is correct, the wizard's spell has a saving throw DC of 20, which means Asmodeus actually fails 60% of the time.

In addition, the rogue (like the monk) is less hampered by Authority of Nessus since he is presumably using a finesse weapon and his attack is Dexterity-based.

 

[Thraug]

I hate the new damage model in the latest packet. Martial Damage Dice and Martial Damage Bonus are broken in many area, most importantly the fun area. At high-levels, a fighter does pretty much the same damage with a pencil as he does with a two-handed battle axe? About the same holds true for a fighter with an 8 STR and one with a 20. At high-levels the bonus damage from using a big weapon and having a high STR is miniscule. This isn't right.

Where is the fun in adding the big flat Martial Damage Bonus? Bring back [W]x dice please, get rid of the Martial Damage Bonus, and do something that makes high-strength important at high levels. As others mentioned, maybe Martial Damage Dice should be multiples of your weapon die and the Martial Damage Bonus should be some multiple of your STR bonus?

 

[DEFCON 1]

I hate the new damage model in the latest packet. Martial Damage Dice and Martial Damage Bonus are broken in many area, most importantly the fun area. At high-levels, a fighter does pretty much the same damage with a pencil as he does with a two-handed battle axe? About the same holds true for a fighter with an 8 STR and one with a 20. At high-levels the bonus damage from using a big weapon and having a high STR is miniscule. This isn't right.

Where is the fun in adding the big flat Martial Damage Bonus? Bring back [W]x dice please, get rid of the Martial Damage Bonus, and do something that makes high-strength important at high levels. As others mentioned, maybe Martial Damage Dice should be multiples of your weapon die and the Martial Damage Bonus should be some multiple of your STR bonus?

Don't get too worked up about it. It's the first packet with the upper tier. Right now they're probably just playtesting the baseline math to make sure it does or doesn't work out. Once they get their level 11-20 numbers right for Hit points and damage, they'll probably start adjusting it with things like weapon dice, additional STR bonuses and the like. But they need to confirm first that at say level 17 a PC should be doing X to Y potential points in damage in a round... before then offering up the myriad of different ways to GET to 'X to Y' points in damage.

So that current flat Martial Bonus Damage value? Probably going to be gone in a couple packets or two.