Armor Class vs. Damage Reduction - Your preference
- Thread starter griffonwing
- Start date
3catcircus
Adventurer
First - I messed up the orc's first attack in my example - his rolls (after being wounded) should've been 9 and 14, rather than 9 and 10... Mea Culpa.
As to how fast it plays - all the work is on the DM and players before hitting the table if they are smart - no different than the detail on the existing character sheet, with the exception of adding the wound level chart, if desired (rather than making the DM tell you each time), and that the DM has to convert all the monsters and NPCs. In practice, it works about as fast as regular d20 until you get up to high level play, at which point it is quicker since you are pretty much still doing single-digit math rather than double or triple-digit math and there is no running total of hit points to keep track of (quick, how many hit points are left if you start out at 167 and take 12, 32, 15, and 27 points of damage, from a claw, two bites, and a club (with 12 of the 27 points being electrical), during a single round of combat each reduced by DR 5/piercing and having Energy Resistance (electrical) 5? Even if counting up rather than down, it still takes some time).
There are a few considerations:
1. How do you balance the need to provide skill points to add to your attack skill with the weapon (groups) while not short-changing the other skill points the players want to spend? I decided that the player can add up to half his skill basic ranks (i.e. the base he gets each level without the Int mod) into attack skills, with no additional skill points to offset the amount spent - it is a decent balance and forces players to make some hard decisions at level up time.
2. Can you substitute the BAB progression instead (i.e., when in normal d20, when your BAB hits +5, you roll 2d20L, when it hits +9, you roll 3d20L, etc.)? You could, but then I'd not use attack skills - which may be preferable if you don't want to deal with players keeping track of yet another skill. You still need to keep the "max ranks per level" regardless of which option you choose, though, to prevent runaway players...
3. What to do about iterative attacks? I just drop them - when, for example, the fighter hits 6th level, he'd get +6/+1 and his first iterative attack, but in the house rules I'm using, he is likely already rolling 2d20L at 5th level.
3. What to do about feats that affect combat bonuses? I just use them as-is except they affect anything that adds to a standard d20 roll affects the target number instead (i.e., using Full Plate when not proficient lowers the to-hit number, Dodge still boosts your AC by 1, Weapon Focus raises your to-hit number by 1, etc.)
Now, my next exploration is to see how using HARPs development points based upon attributes rather than a fixed "x + Int mod" skill points works, since it ties the skills and attributes together (i.e., a PC with an 18 STR could take a total of 8 skill ranks in any skill using STR as the controlling attribute, for example. So a PC with the array of S16 D12 C15 I11 W8 Ch9 could take a total of 6 STR skill ranks, 2 DEX skill ranks, 5 CON skill ranks, 1 INT skill rank, and no ranks in WIS or CHA skills. That is up to 6 ranks in any combo of Climb, Jump, Swim, Melee Attack; 2 ranks in any combo of Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, or Ranged Attack, etc.)
As to how fast it plays - all the work is on the DM and players before hitting the table if they are smart - no different than the detail on the existing character sheet, with the exception of adding the wound level chart, if desired (rather than making the DM tell you each time), and that the DM has to convert all the monsters and NPCs. In practice, it works about as fast as regular d20 until you get up to high level play, at which point it is quicker since you are pretty much still doing single-digit math rather than double or triple-digit math and there is no running total of hit points to keep track of (quick, how many hit points are left if you start out at 167 and take 12, 32, 15, and 27 points of damage, from a claw, two bites, and a club (with 12 of the 27 points being electrical), during a single round of combat each reduced by DR 5/piercing and having Energy Resistance (electrical) 5? Even if counting up rather than down, it still takes some time).
There are a few considerations:
1. How do you balance the need to provide skill points to add to your attack skill with the weapon (groups) while not short-changing the other skill points the players want to spend? I decided that the player can add up to half his skill basic ranks (i.e. the base he gets each level without the Int mod) into attack skills, with no additional skill points to offset the amount spent - it is a decent balance and forces players to make some hard decisions at level up time.
2. Can you substitute the BAB progression instead (i.e., when in normal d20, when your BAB hits +5, you roll 2d20L, when it hits +9, you roll 3d20L, etc.)? You could, but then I'd not use attack skills - which may be preferable if you don't want to deal with players keeping track of yet another skill. You still need to keep the "max ranks per level" regardless of which option you choose, though, to prevent runaway players...
3. What to do about iterative attacks? I just drop them - when, for example, the fighter hits 6th level, he'd get +6/+1 and his first iterative attack, but in the house rules I'm using, he is likely already rolling 2d20L at 5th level.
3. What to do about feats that affect combat bonuses? I just use them as-is except they affect anything that adds to a standard d20 roll affects the target number instead (i.e., using Full Plate when not proficient lowers the to-hit number, Dodge still boosts your AC by 1, Weapon Focus raises your to-hit number by 1, etc.)
Now, my next exploration is to see how using HARPs development points based upon attributes rather than a fixed "x + Int mod" skill points works, since it ties the skills and attributes together (i.e., a PC with an 18 STR could take a total of 8 skill ranks in any skill using STR as the controlling attribute, for example. So a PC with the array of S16 D12 C15 I11 W8 Ch9 could take a total of 6 STR skill ranks, 2 DEX skill ranks, 5 CON skill ranks, 1 INT skill rank, and no ranks in WIS or CHA skills. That is up to 6 ranks in any combo of Climb, Jump, Swim, Melee Attack; 2 ranks in any combo of Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, or Ranged Attack, etc.)
3catcircus
Adventurer
First - I messed up the orc's first attack in my example - his rolls (after being wounded) should've been 9 and 14, rather than 9 and 10... Mea Culpa.
As to how fast it plays - all the work is on the DM and players before hitting the table if they are smart - no different than the detail on the existing character sheet, with the exception of adding the wound level chart, if desired (rather than making the DM tell you each time), and that the DM has to convert all the monsters and NPCs. In practice, it works about as fast as regular d20 until you get up to high level play, at which point it is quicker since you are pretty much still doing single-digit math rather than double or triple-digit math and there is no running total of hit points to keep track of (quick, how many hit points are left if you start out at 167 and take 12, 32, 15, and 27 points of damage, from a claw, two bites, and a club (with 12 of the 27 points being electrical), during a single round of combat each reduced by DR 5/piercing and having Energy Resistance (electrical) 5? Even if counting up rather than down, it still takes some time).
There are a few considerations:
1. How do you balance the need to provide skill points to add to your attack skill with the weapon (groups) while not short-changing the other skill points the players want to spend? I decided that the player can add up to half his skill basic ranks (i.e. the base he gets each level without the Int mod) into attack skills, with no additional skill points to offset the amount spent - it is a decent balance and forces players to make some hard decisions at level up time.
2. Can you substitute the BAB progression instead (i.e., when in normal d20, when your BAB hits +5, you roll 2d20L, when it hits +9, you roll 3d20L, etc.)? You could, but then I'd not use attack skills - which may be preferable if you don't want to deal with players keeping track of yet another skill. You still need to keep the "max ranks per level" regardless of which option you choose, though, to prevent runaway players...
3. What to do about iterative attacks? I just drop them - when, for example, the fighter hits 6th level, he'd get +6/+1 and his first iterative attack, but in the house rules I'm using, he is likely already rolling 2d20L at 5th level.
3. What to do about feats that affect combat bonuses? I just use them as-is except they affect anything that adds to a standard d20 roll affects the target number instead (i.e., using Full Plate when not proficient lowers the to-hit number, Dodge still boosts your AC by 1, Weapon Focus raises your to-hit number by 1, etc.)
Now, my next exploration is to see how using HARPs development points based upon attributes rather than a fixed "x + Int mod" skill points works, since it ties the skills and attributes together (i.e., a PC with an 18 STR could take a total of 8 skill ranks in any skill using STR as the controlling attribute, for example. So a PC with the array of S16 D12 C15 I11 W8 Ch9 could take a total of 6 STR skill ranks, 2 DEX skill ranks, 5 CON skill ranks, 1 INT skill rank, and no ranks in WIS or CHA skills. That is up to 6 ranks in any combo of Climb, Jump, Swim, Melee Attack; 2 ranks in any combo of Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, or Ranged Attack, etc.)
As to how fast it plays - all the work is on the DM and players before hitting the table if they are smart - no different than the detail on the existing character sheet, with the exception of adding the wound level chart, if desired (rather than making the DM tell you each time), and that the DM has to convert all the monsters and NPCs. In practice, it works about as fast as regular d20 until you get up to high level play, at which point it is quicker since you are pretty much still doing single-digit math rather than double or triple-digit math and there is no running total of hit points to keep track of (quick, how many hit points are left if you start out at 167 and take 12, 32, 15, and 27 points of damage, from a claw, two bites, and a club (with 12 of the 27 points being electrical), during a single round of combat each reduced by DR 5/piercing and having Energy Resistance (electrical) 5? Even if counting up rather than down, it still takes some time).
There are a few considerations:
1. How do you balance the need to provide skill points to add to your attack skill with the weapon (groups) while not short-changing the other skill points the players want to spend? I decided that the player can add up to half his skill basic ranks (i.e. the base he gets each level without the Int mod) into attack skills, with no additional skill points to offset the amount spent - it is a decent balance and forces players to make some hard decisions at level up time.
2. Can you substitute the BAB progression instead (i.e., when in normal d20, when your BAB hits +5, you roll 2d20L, when it hits +9, you roll 3d20L, etc.)? You could, but then I'd not use attack skills - which may be preferable if you don't want to deal with players keeping track of yet another skill. You still need to keep the "max ranks per level" regardless of which option you choose, though, to prevent runaway players...
3. What to do about iterative attacks? I just drop them - when, for example, the fighter hits 6th level, he'd get +6/+1 and his first iterative attack, but in the house rules I'm using, he is likely already rolling 2d20L at 5th level.
3. What to do about feats that affect combat bonuses? I just use them as-is except they affect anything that adds to a standard d20 roll affects the target number instead (i.e., using Full Plate when not proficient lowers the to-hit number, Dodge still boosts your AC by 1, Weapon Focus raises your to-hit number by 1, etc.)
Now, my next exploration is to see how using HARPs development points based upon attributes rather than a fixed "x + Int mod" skill points works, since it ties the skills and attributes together (i.e., a PC with an 18 STR could take a total of 8 skill ranks in any skill using STR as the controlling attribute, for example. So a PC with the array of S16 D12 C15 I11 W8 Ch9 could take a total of 6 STR skill ranks, 2 DEX skill ranks, 5 CON skill ranks, 1 INT skill rank, and no ranks in WIS or CHA skills. That is up to 6 ranks in any combo of Climb, Jump, Swim, Melee Attack; 2 ranks in any combo of Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, or Ranged Attack, etc.)
JustinAlexander
First Post
If the system uses D&D-style, inflationary hit points to represent a character's ability to mitigate damage (as explained here), I prefer AC. Trying to use the DR system in combination with inflationary hit points tends to (a) break the model and (b) produce wonky effects on gameplay.
If you're using a non-inflationary hit point system or a wound system which is directly modeling physical damage, armor-as-DR tends to work better. But it still carries the "system tax" of adding an extra step to combat calculations.
griffonwing
First Post
I think DR works very well with HackMaster. Certain weapons have a DR bypass vs heavy armor OR monster over DR+5. For example, a flail or warhammer ignores 1 DR and a military pick or mace ignores 2.
Also, in regards to HP, you only gain a new hit-die every odd level. Every even level, you reroll and either overwrite your prev roll (if higher) or take half max if you failed both before. For example. You have 20 HP and you raise to Level 3; you roll class HD (d10) and you get 2. You have 22 HP. Level 4, you reroll. If you roll a 1 -5, your HP raises to half HD; 25. If you roll a 6-10, your previous (level 3) roll changes to current (20 + current). If, however, his first roll was 8, his HP would not increase at level 4 unless he rolled a 9 or 10. It sounds a bit confusing, but it takes longer to explain it than to put it in practice. It helps to keep the power level from skyrocketing.
So, for all classes, the reroll (minium half) helps to offset the horrible HPs that can result of botched rolls. How many times have you seen a Mage in D&D with more HP than a Fighter due to the fighter rolling 1s and 2s every level. This ensures that even should the player roll nothing but 1s, his HP should be at least half of the max of the class norm.
So, yes, the HP is inflationary, however, only at half the level as other game systems, and it has various ways to keep the powers in check.
Wednesday Boy
The Nerd WhoFell to Earth
It's old and primarily relates to D&D but I find this argument reasonable.
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/armorasdamagereduction.html
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/armorasdamagereduction.html
Argyle King
Legend
I find it reasonable in the context of D&D, and at the end of it he seems to make it clear that he was speaking with D&D in mind. Outside of D&D, a lot of the things he mentions as problems are handled and handled very easily by some of the games which use DR systems.
Argyle King
Legend
I find it reasonable in the context of D&D, and at the end of it he seems to make it clear that he was speaking with D&D in mind. Outside of D&D, a lot of the things he mentions as problems are handled and handled very easily by some of the games which use DR systems.
3catcircus
Adventurer
Based upon how we've done it in our D&D game, it really doesn't seem to be a problem at all. You just have to wrap your head around a few ideas that seem non-intuitive at first:
1. Use of dice pools seems to be a must as it drives probabilities far better than a single d20 roll to-hit.
2. DR needs to be a value factored off of AC while AC values remain the same and not just doing the "AC is now half what it was when using normal rules."
3. The use of a weapon penetration multiplied by DR to determine how much damage is reduced works far better than just reducing damage by DR.
4. Making hit points based off of physical attributes that does not increase with level is an important aspect of this, along with the idea of having multiples of your hp as trip points for wound levels that slowly affect your ability to act (and that then avalanches as the wounds accumulate) works very well with this.
I freely admit I pretty much lifted most of these ideas whole-sale from another game system and adapted them to d20, but they work. They are far more interesting in play than the current d20 rules and readily lend themselves to using damage reduction.
As to the argument of "are they worth the trouble?" Well - at this point, the d20 rules, to me, seem extremely bland and devoid of "soul." Mechanics that take a bit more of an organic approach and try to apply some thought into why the numbers are doing what they are doing are far more appealing to me. As far as I can tell, as implemented in d20, DR is really nothing more than a way to artificially inflate hit points so that NPCs and monsters can go a few more rounds in combat as the player's BAB, hp, and AC continue to increase.
JamesonCourage
Adventurer
In my RPG, armor adds to AC and usually gives DR as well. And yes, certain weapons have an armor penetration rating (or weapons can be built to add it).
This is something you essentially need to do once, in my experience. And, if the AP (armor penetration) doesn't outpace the DR, you just add it to damage. So if you did 1d10+8 (4 AP) against DR of 10, you'd essentially roll 1d10+2 (1d10+8+4-10). Easy for us, and you really need to do it once. And, if the AP beats the DR, then you just roll normal damage. So, 1d10+8 (4 AP) vs DR 4 means you roll 1d10+8. Again, easy for us.
Though I get why this still won't appeal to some people. I also have both the attacker and defender roll opposed checks, and while it doesn't take my group any longer than normal, I get why people may not like it.
I can also see this, even if it doesn't sway me, personally. It might be a little frustrating, but winning that fight is amazing, for my group. It's like almost dying; being knocked unconscious might be frustrating, but the fight being won and it being close is a lot of fun. The possible temporary frustration is worth it; this mindset also means we expect it, and it's less frustrating. It's part of the fun, now.
Yep, and this leads me to agree with others: the system should have armor-as-DR in mind when designed, not tacked on afterwards. There's usually just too many problems that come from it, especially in systems like 3.5, where damage varies wildly when you compare level 1 to level 15. As always, play what you like
Like I said above, you really only need to calculate it once per fight. Though, again, I understand if that doesn't appeal to you.
This isn't a D&D thread, it's tagged "RPG". As always, play what you like
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