Gods and their temples in your games

I am curious on how different DMs handle and use the gods in their games.

1. Can you kill them?
2. Do they play a major part in your world?
3. Do you just hand wave them away except for letting the cleric have access to divine magic?
4. Do your good temples all get along is the only strife if there is any between good and evil churches?
5. Do you require your clerics to tithe to their churches?
6. Do the cleric gods every get angry with the cleric and block access to his spells?

Broke it down for ease of understanding.

1. Yes, though I'm not sure how that will play out yet.

2. Not generally. It's the clerics and the faithful that play the important roles. The gods are important in the outer spheres, though.

3. Kind of - divine magic comes from the cleric's faith and beliefs, not from the god. The gods set up their religions to get people to believe in specific ideals and then taught them magic that makes those ideals into reality. The gods don't really have anything to do with it. When your powers come directly from a distant source, that makes you a warlock.

4. There's strife between everyone at times. I wanted to make sure that each god, even the evil ones, had something to offer a community. Priests of Lolth make good lawyers, priests of Tiamat make good accountants. Even worship of Tharizdun can be rationalized - they're anarchists fighting against conformity and restrictive social rules.

5. No. There's no big organized religion because civilization collapsed. A local priest may collect tithes, but that'd be no different from a lord collecting taxes (or a bandit collecting tribute). Clerics and paladins have to perform services to the community, though, in order to get their spells back. What they must do depends on their beliefs.

6. Since gods don't give spells they can't hold them back. They don't have any direct connection to the characters (generally) so they can't get mad. Clerics and paladins have to stick to their own beliefs, though, and if they violate these then they are wracked with inner doubt and become less effective in general.

Other notes:

Since I play 4E, divine characters use Radiant powers a lot. What "Radiant" means depends on the god. We have seen a cleric of Tharizdun who shoots disintegration rays, a warlock whose pact with Baalezebul means her radiant powers deal with lies and/or flies, a cleric of Lolth who speaks lies and makes you believe them without question... probably some other stuff that I'm missing/forget.

I also have a few skills specific to divine characters. They can call on their faith to give them great strength, they can see their god's will manifest in the world (the cleric of Tharizdun sees madness as purple auras around people), and they can call on their devotion to enforce their specific worldview.
 

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God(s) in my campaigns are beyond the scope of mortal understanding. Whether their beliefs are polytheistic, or monotheistic (both exist in my campaigns), and no matter how sophisticated or established the religion(s), any interpretation of divinity is still just a projection of mortal concept.

Because this is so, it is possible to have people of widely differing philosophies (and theologies, of course), interpretations, and even alignments--all within the same religion--or, even, within the same church!

So where does divine magic fit it? It is not so much a gift from divine entities (although it's practitioners may well think it is), but an extension of faith, itself.

Naturally, entrenched religious institutions have a vested interest in considering such theological interpretation as heretical, should any forward-thinking mystic ever present such a concept.

Also of note: I don't tell my players any of the above.
 

I run Dark Sun, soooo...

Well, long story short, I made it so the "gods" - all basically super-powerful forebears of beast head giants - were vanquished by Rajaat and his champions before going all genocidal. Given that the gods were more or less bastards - territorial power-mad despots, aligned with a city or territory instead of a divine "portfolio", so basically maybe a bit worse than the S-K's - this was seen as a good thing.

The party's already woken up one of these gods, eagle-headed Morokot, formerly lord of the Tamwar. And found the corpse of Taraskir the Lion beneath Giustenal. Now they are heading to the Blue Shrine on a rumor that a sleeping goddess is waking....

-O
 

I am curious on how different DMs handle and use the gods in their games. Can you kill them, do they play a major part in your world? Do you just hand wave them away except for letting the cleric have access to divine magic?

Yes but no PC ever has in my campaigns, yes, no.

Do your good temples all get along is the only strife if there is any between good and evil churches? Do you require your clerics to tithe to their churches? Do the cleric gods every get angry with the cleric and block access to his spells?

No, the good temples clash when their policies clash. Tithing is not required, but can lead to political favour. Yes if the cleric acts against the interest of the deity. In addition, there is no guarantee the cleric will get the spells petitioned for, but such interference is rare and effectively acts as a form of divine sign.

I use the gods and their churches a lot in my games. And I have certain rules for clerics if you play a cleric of a god with an organized temple then you tithe 10% of your loot to the church. I have been known to take away spells on clerics who break a lot of the tenets that his god holds true.

Gods can't be out righted killed in my games by PCs they can be badly diminished and banished for hundreds even thousands of years but they can come back. They also can't easily walk around the material plains to do so makes them vulnerable so many chose to speak through someone else or use dreams to communicate with followers.

Generally, I run a world with multiple polythesic pantheons. At a miniimum, a cleric must choose the pantheon to worship. He can choose a particular patron if he exemplifies or wants to exemplify a particular deity. Patronage adds a few benefits and restrictions to the cleric. A cleric that displeases a patron is relegated to pantheon worship and is unlikely to get a new patron.

Worldly rivalries exist within the religions of a pantheon and between pantheons in additon to the rivalries evidenced by the gods themselves. Clerics are given wide latitude of action, but generally must promote their religion over others. Use of divine magic is considered a way to sway the masses into belief. Gods may walk among mortals, but it limits them so they rarely do.

<snip>
 

The cleric works directly for the church, if applicable, and spends his money on equipment to better enable him to perform this job.
If anything, shouldn't he be the one receiving money from tithes? :hmm:
 

The cleric works directly for the church, if applicable, and spends his money on equipment to better enable him to perform this job.
If anything, shouldn't he be the one receiving money from tithes? :hmm:

I've played in games like this. Clerics(and sometimes their allies) can requisition supplies or funding from the Church, though it often comes with strings.
 

I'm running Dark Sun, so ... no gods. Some pretend ones though.

If I were doing my own settings, though, I'd do the following:

I am curious on how different DMs handle and use the gods in their games. Can you kill them, do they play a major part in your world? Do you just hand wave them away except for letting the cleric have access to divine magic?

You can't kill them (or even get to them). They don't play a major role in the world. High-ranking divine casters and "immortals" play a role. The casters are often overzealous and the deities cannot tell them this. (A caster who uses the appropriate rituals might get a hint of this though.)

Do your good temples all get along is the only strife if there is any between good and evil churches? Do you require your clerics to tithe to their churches? Do the cleric gods every get angry with the cleric and block access to his spells?

1) Usually I only have a few religions. Often they're given very different portfolios, keeping conflict minimized. (Of course they compete.) Even differently-aligned deities might not be in conflict, depending on their portfolios.

2) Not when adventuring. Tithing depends on the setting. For instance, if I'm using a Thrane-inspired setting, there is a state religion, and everyone is expected to tithe. It's the law. The non-religious rulers still pay tithes, as they have confessors, who know everything.

On the other hand, if the setting is a bit more like Japan, there might be numerous religions, each of which competes for donations. Some people wouldn't pay anything at all.

3) Rarely. You don't have to use spells to further the deity's agenda (at least, not each individual spell) but using magic directly against the deity's agenda would get you in trouble.

Gods get power from their worshipers so there is always some rivalry between them even the good gods.

Gods need prayer, badly. Yeah, I like this one.

As for the churches sometimes they work together sometimes they don't. And if you are not a follower of the god you can't expect them to help you for free there will always be something in for them.

I agree with this, but I don't think it has much effect on PCs as they usually have a cleric or other divine character to rely on anyway.

Take raise dead the cleric preforming it on a non follower will usually be tasked by his god to do something or sometimes the god may put a geas on the non believer to fulfill a task or give them X amount of time to fulfill a quest or the god will take back their life. Which is why in a lot of my games people prefer reincarnate usually because it has no strings involved.

I don't like deities having this much direct influence on the setting. Unless you're trying to raise an enemy, there shouldn't be a backlash.

One question, primarily to those who tie the power of a god to its number of followers, what is a follower exactly?
In a polytheistic pantheon, especially one where people do know for fact that all the deities really exist like in D&D hardly anyone would just worship one god. They might slightly favor one god over others because of their profession, tradition, birth, etc. but most people would follow the rites of several, if not all, gods and pray to whatever god their support they need of think they have angered.

In Japan, you can be Buddhist, Shinto, both, or neither. I figure a character can easily have a "split loyalty" and is therefore only giving a partial amount to each religion, both in terms of money and in terms of "unspecified power". (In Ancient Japan, you were expected to follow whatever religion your daimyo followed. If you were Shinto, and your daimyo was Buddhist, you would be expected to be both. I'm not sure what punishment, if any, there was for not following that tradition.)

I don't like the idea of having characters worship "outside of their pantheon" and said characters would know that any curses, etc, would come from immortals or priests rather than the gods themselves. (If you ticked off a god, you could negotiate with their priests in order to not get cursed.)

However, a character who wanted a specific ritual performed (one for a business blessing, for instance, or a sea journey) could pass money to a follower of that deity and have them perform the ritual. While supporting a "rival church", this has no real impact on their own religious feelings.

Since most spells and rituals are not deity-specific, it's easy for a character to literally not need another deity for anything. Pretty much any cleric can cast Water Walk, even if they're worshipping a god of the desert. (It's not a spell they're likely to prepare every day, or a ritual they're likely to have on them, but they could prep or buy a scroll.)

As a result, supporting a rival church, even financially, is rare in a game I'm running.

Note that outside of D&D many more spells would be segregated. In Warhammer, for instance, Gentle Repose (I don't know what it's called there) would only be available to priests of Morr, and a priest of Sigmar might have to pay a priest of Morr to keep a dead friend preserved or prevent them from rising as an undead.
 
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In Japan, you can be Buddhist, Shinto, both, or neither. I figure a character can easily have a "split loyalty" and is therefore only giving a partial amount to each religion, both in terms of money and in terms of "unspecified power". (In Ancient Japan, you were expected to follow whatever religion your daimyo followed. If you were Shinto, and your daimyo was Buddhist, you would be expected to be both. I'm not sure what punishment, if any, there was for not following that tradition.)

I don't like the idea of having characters worship "outside of their pantheon" and said characters would know that any curses, etc, would come from immortals or priests rather than the gods themselves. (If you ticked off a god, you could negotiate with their priests in order to not get cursed.)

But that is pantheon specific. How do you decide which god inside the pantheon someone is a follower of when he prays to all of them depending on his need?
Also I do not think Buddhism and Shinto are good representation of D&D deities as Buddhism is a philosophy as much as it is a religion and Shinto is ancestor worshiping. Imo, if you want to stay in Asia, Daoism and Hindu are a better representation with lots of gods people pray to when they want their favor. Other examples would include the ancient egyptian Pantheon and the Norse gods.
 

But that is pantheon specific. How do you decide which god inside the pantheon someone is a follower of when he prays to all of them depending on his need?

Simply put, I don't care. I like how in Eberron you can be a cleric of an entire pantheon, without having to "specialize". Someone can say they're a follower of the Dark Six. All six of them. And someone can be a cleric of the Dark Six too. Maybe you don't want to say that out loud though :)

An elf could be a follower of the Undying Court, which isn't actually a god but a collection of powerful undying creatures.

Also I do not think Buddhism and Shinto are good representation of D&D deities as Buddhism is a philosophy as much as it is a religion and Shinto is ancestor worshiping. Imo, if you want to stay in Asia, Daoism and Hindu are a better representation with lots of gods people pray to when they want their favor. Other examples would include the ancient egyptian Pantheon and the Norse gods.

I think they're fine. I don't think religions need to be specifically based around deities. (In the case of Buddhism, I've seen it referred to as an "atheist religion" because it has no gods.)

Mind you, the "priests" of Shinto might be more shaman than cleric, but oh well.

I used the Japanese examples because I can't think of a country where, say, Hinduism and Taoism exist simultaneously. While India has multiple religions, one of them (Islam) specifically says you can't believe in another religion (much like the other Abrahamic religions have the same rules). Although I suppose I could have used China as an example (Buddhism and Taoism are available), but my knowledge of Chinese culture is too slim to say with any degree of authority whether a Chinese person can claim to follow both religions/philosophies.
 

Simply put, I don't care. I like how in Eberron you can be a cleric of an entire pantheon, without having to "specialize". Someone can say they're a follower of the Dark Six. All six of them. And someone can be a cleric of the Dark Six too. Maybe you don't want to say that out loud though :)

An elf could be a follower of the Undying Court, which isn't actually a god but a collection of powerful undying creatures.

And speaking of classical religions, it doesn't really matter, because the gods themselves don't wholly care. They establish an internal heirarchy on their own, I mean Zeus and Hades were constantly bickering over who should rule Olympus, but that didn't stop people from praying to Ares for strength on the battlefield or Mercury for swift and safe travel or any other major or lesser deity.

A player could indicate that they are specifically a Cleric of War, therefore they follow Mars. I mean the whole fun part to godly "pantheons" is all the drama! Maybe today you are a follower of Mars, but then Pluto makes you a better offer....until Saturn shows up and threatens to melt out your eyeballs and light your chest-hair on fire if you don't start following him and his Titan buddies. Of course this assumes you have a worldly active pantheon(who wouldn't? They're so much fun! And you just might get to score with a god!)
 

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