Scaling classic adventures: Is there a downside?

[ruleslawyer]

Dear ENWorlders,

I just started a 4e campaign that I'm trying to plan out around classic elements. However, I'd like to incorporate the GDQ module series and I'm having a problem making the levels work in a 1-30 campaign. So here's my question: What's the downside to straight up re-leveling adventures? To be more specific: I'm thinking of kicking off the paragon tier with Chris Perkins's adapted Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, moving straight into the frost giant sequel, and then going to the Eclavdra/door to the Underdark encounter from his fire giant adaptation. Obviously, this entails re-leveling hill giants, frost giants, and other key NPCs. Anyone see any negatives to just doing that? Are there weird powers or effects I need to watch out for in those adventures? Love any thoughts you might have; thank you!

 

[S'mon]

It's doable, but seems like a lot of work for little payoff. I'd think it would be easier to run as-written but modify XP awards by giving bonus XP so that the group are roughly where you want them to be, basically 3 levels per adventure instead of two:

Hill giants: start at 11, finish at 14.
Frost giants: start at 14, finish at 17.
Fire giants: start at 17.

The frost giants will be a bit tough, but should be survivable for a good 5 PC group.

 

[pemerton]

My general advice would be no worries, go for it. That said, the action denial that is fairly common in upper Paragon monsters might be a little bit hard for lower level PCs - but you'll pretty quickly get a feel for whether or not that's going to be an issue for your group, and can adjust accordingly.

If you have access to the Neverwinter Campaign Guide, you can see how WotC went about building a whole campaign, including devils, aberrants etc within the Heroic tier - so it will show you how they levelled down some monster concepts that would normally be Paragon or even Epic.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Wow thanks for the quick replies!

S'mon: Totally appreciate the advice re XP awards. The issue with scaling isn't that I want to kick off these adventures early but rather that I want to get PCs started on the "D1-3 equivalent" adventures sooner (c. 17th-18th level).

pemerton: Yeah, actually I was exactly thinking about specific issues like action denial. Scaling in general can be kinda weird so I was hoping to isolate the really problematic issues that differentiate, say, a 16th level adventure's monsters from their 13th-level analogues.

 

[pemerton]

Seriously, between 13th and 16th level I don't think you'll notice anything significant. Perhaps the very odd dose of Stun, but Superior Will will override that anyway!

 

[sabrinathecat]

Or you can just throw in a short side-trek in between adventures that lets the PCs get the xp they need. Maybe something fun, off-beat, or just weird fun.

 

[S'mon]

S'mon: Totally appreciate the advice re XP awards. The issue with scaling isn't that I want to kick off these adventures early but rather that I want to get PCs started on the "D1-3 equivalent" adventures sooner (c. 17th-18th level).

Hm, yeah I can see you'd probably want to be in Paragon for D1-D2. You could do D3 ok in Epic by using the MM3 drow.

Here are some "original G1-3" style hill frost and fire giants I did in 2011 when I was thinking like you, geared to the level 8-12 range of the originals.

ANT ELITES (HP ARE HALF RAW)

Hill Giant Barbarian Level 8 Elite Brute
Large natural humanoid XP 700
Initiative +3 Senses Perception +4
HP 107; Bloodied 53
AC 21; Fortitude 22; Reflex 17; Will 18
Saving Throws +2
Speed 8
Action Points 1
m Greatclub (standard; at-will) • Weapon
Reach 2; +13 vs AC; 3d10 + 9 damage
m Sweeping Club (standard; at-will) • Weapon
Reach 2; The hill giant makes a greatclub attack against one or two Medium or smaller targets; on a hit, the target is pushed 2 squares and knocked prone.; +13 vs AC; 3d10 + 9 damage
R Hurl Rock (standard; at-will)
Ranged 12; +10 vs Reflex; 3d6 + 9 damage; and a Small or Medium target is pushed 1 square and knocked prone.
M Brutal Strike (standard; recharge 5 6) • Weapon
Reach 2; The hill giant makes a brutal overhead strike to the foe's head.; +13 vs AC; 4d10 + 18 damage, and a Small, Medium or Large target is knocked prone and dazed (save ends)

Steady Footing
When an effect pulls, pushes, or slides a hill giant, the giant moves 1 square less than the effect specifies. Also, the giant can make a saving throw to avoid being knocked prone.
Alignment Chaotic Evil Languages Giant
Skills Athletics +14
Str 21 (+9) Dex 8 (+3) Wis 10 (+4)
Con 17 (+7) Int 5 (+1) Cha 7 (+2)
Equipment Hide Armor, Greatclub

Frost Giant Level 10 Elite Brute
Large elemental humanoid XP 1,000
Initiative +6 Senses Perception +8
HP 128; Bloodied 64
AC 24; Fortitude 22; Reflex 19; Will 20
Resist 10 cold
Saving Throws +2
Speed 8
Action Points 1
m Icy Greataxe (standard; at-will) • Cold, Weapon
Reach 2; +15 vs AC; 3d12 + 10 (crit 3d12 + 46) weapon damage plus 10 cold damage; and a small or medium target is knocked prone
M Dying Swipe (when the frost giant drops to 0 hit points)
The frost giant makes an icy greataxe attack
C Chilling Breath (minor; recharge 5 6) • Cold
Close Blast 3; The giant's breath enfolds his foes, and chilling ice rimes their bodies.; +11 vs Fortitude; 2d6 + 9 cold damage, and the target is slowed and gains vulnerable 10 cold (save ends both)
R Icy Dart (standard; at-will) • Cold, Weapon
The giant plucks an icicle from his beard and throws it at the foe.
Ranged 10; +13 vs AC; 3d6 + 10 cold damage
Icebound Footing (at-will)
When an effect pulls, pushes, or slides a frost giant, the giant moves 2 squares less than the effect specifies. Also, a frost giant can make a saving throw to avoid being knocked prone.
Alignment Evil Languages Giant
Skills Athletics +15, Endurance +14
Str 21 (+10) Dex 13 (+6) Wis 17 (+8)
Con 18 (+9) Int 10 (+5) Cha 12 (+6)
Equipment Scale Armor, Greataxe

Fire Giant Warrior Level 11 Elite Brute
Large elemental humanoid XP 1,200
Initiative +4 Senses Perception +11
HP 144; Bloodied 72
AC 26; Fortitude 24; Reflex 20; Will 21
Resist 15 fire
Saving Throws +2
Speed 7
Action Points 1
m Searing Greatsword (standard; at-will) • Fire, Weapon
Reach 2; +16 vs AC; 4d10 + 11 damage plus 10 fire damage, and a Secondary Attack vs small or medium target: + 14 vs Fortitude. Hit: Target is knocked prone.
M Sweeping Sword (standard; at-will) • Fire, Weapon
Reach 2, 1 or 2 targets, Requires greatsword; +14 vs AC; 3d10 + 11 damage plus 10 fire damage, and small or medium targets are pushed 3 squares and knocked prone.
R Iron Dart (standard; at-will) • Weapon
Ranged 20; +15 vs AC; 2d8 + 10 damage, and a small or medium target is pushed 2 squares.

Steady Footing
When an effect pulls, pushes, or slides a fire giant, the giant moves 1 square less than the effect specifies. Also, the giant can make a saving throw to avoid being knocked prone.
Alignment Evil Languages Giant
Skills Intimidate +13, Athletics +16, Endurance +17
Str 23 (+11) Dex 9 (+4) Wis 13 (+6)
Con 24 (+12) Int 12 (+6) Cha 16 (+8)
Equipment Plate Armor, Greatsword

 

[Quickleaf]

Generally, I've used 2 approaches when converting old adventures to 4e:

Little-to-no-work: I use my 4e DM cheat sheet to improvise & a printout from the old Monster Builder of any Iconic monsters from the adventure. That's it.

Complete redesign: Reinterpret the mechanics of the adventure using 4e mechanics while retaining the original adventure's spirit. This is what I'm doing for Dragon Mountain and it is time intensive.

I suppose you could have some sort of hybrid between the two, where you're adjusting your approach depending on the encounter/micro-region of the adventure. As far as changing the level on monsters...Chris Perkins' trick works well enough when you're within the same tier, though you'll need to use some common sense with specific monsters.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

I've been re-levelling 4E monsters to their 1E hit dice equivalent simply because it suits our lower-levelled games better.

Originally I was going to do what S'mon did with the giants but, in the end, I simply went all the way and made, for example, hill giants into 8th-level brutes.

I did much the same with all the other common humanoids and giants with the exceptions of orcs and hobgoblins which are both 2nd-level monsters. This was to leave space for goblins at 1st-level... and kobolds as 1st-level minions.

Yes, there was some work involved but I enjoyed doing it.

BTW, if you go this route, may I suggest not levelling up your standard humanoids and giants when the PCs increase in level. Go with minion versions instead but increase the minion's level by 8 to match the XP award of the original monster. IMC, standard orcs are 2nd-level brutes but, once the PCs are 7th/8th-level or higher the standard orcs they fight are 10th-level minion brutes.

This was actually based on feedback from my players. They didn't like the way every encounter was more or less level-appropriate and that when they hit, for example, 10th-level orcs were still 10th-level standard monsters. It was like they never increased in power.

They prefer my revisions markedly, particularly the feel of fighting orcs at 10th-level and killing them with one hit. Verisimilitude and all that.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Wow; all great input. Thank you! S'mon: I think I may use your giants leveled up by 2-3, just because I'd like to run G1-3 at levels 11-15 rather than 8-12. (I don't use XP, so advancement is easy for me to control.)