Roleplaying since the 80s and I'm really tired!

[Jacob Lewis]

Yes, and they have been trying it, too, but you've said you don't want anything to do with "renting" content or using computers in the game. You may need to be open to the idea that the other way that works may not be what you want.

I did say "renting", but I said nothing for nor against computers. Don't put words in my mouth, please.

I say I'm tired of eating fried steak and someone decides offering me broiled steak and a steak burger are "new" ideas, am I going to be wrong for being disappointed about that? Maybe for not being clear enough with what I want, but so far, the menu only contains 'steak'. A hundred different ways for steak, and a few salads. (Man, I could go for some steak...)

I think there is too much reliance on companies to come up with new ideas or innovations that none of us really have. How do we know this is the only way an RPG is supposed to be made if nobody ever tried anything truly different than what we already know? Point is, I don't care for another game system so closely similar to ones I already have. Why should any of us be excited about the same thing regurgitated back at us because the plate is different? (Its still steak!)

Fourth Edition *could* have been greater than it was if they could convince themselves that they had to own the old market. Start a new one! Most gamers seem very content to fall back on 3.5, or even picked up on Pathfinder as a newer, revised edition. 4e was different, but not different enough. And it seems to me that it was held back because of most of the points I originally expressed.

I am fairly convinced that the basic modes of business available are limited by the niche-nature of the market. And that's not due to game design, or marketing, but due to the nature of the activity. Just as not everyone enjoys model trains as a hobby, not everyone enjoys RPGs. That means market saturation will always be an issue for publishers, making a game based in a single-small book unlikely to be economically desirable for the publisher.

Maybe its time to reinvent the market. But that's not likely to happen if the menu never changes. (Again, more steak. )

So, those extra books are required for economic viability for the publisher, and to give enough options to the game so gearheads are attracted to play alongside folks like you - these two together are required for real "success" and "viability" for both the publishers and players. But I don't think those extra books are actually intimidating folks and causing them to stay away from the game.

You know that for a fact? Ask around. I have. And I still do. Doesn't mean I'm right or you're wrong because I didn't get around to asking everybody, and people I ask may be different than anyone else. Also, people aren't always honest, even with themselves. And most just might not care what some random person asks about something they don't care about.

But they do exist. Gamers are used to it. Try enticing non-gamers with your favorite game which takes up multiple shelves and closet space. I have shown them my various games, gave them a quick glance through each PHB, and asked their opinions about it. It is intimidating, even when I explained how most of it can be treated as optional. Their preference was usually the boardgames that had one 36-page booklet explaining how to play. You cannot tell me it is not a factor. That's nothing more than a denial than a willingness to address a possible problem with no easy (or risk-easy) solution. There must be a way!

 

[TwoSix]

I know there are games out there that have depth and exploration without the need for clunky/complex mechanics. And somewhere within every RPG ever made is a fundamental game that can be explained, taught, and enjoyed without insisting on the need for 300+ page manuals to do so. Core products need to provide a complete experience with mechanics that are simple and easy to learn, while supplemental materials should be made to enhance that core product. If you expect non-gamers to get into this hobby, give them something that is fast and easy to enjoy. Then they can decide for themselves if they want to invest in more game with more opportunities than just options.

It's weird, it's like this whole conversation has happened without acknowledging the existence of indie games. If you want D&D tropes in a game that's still crunchy but self-contained, try Dungeon World.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

One of the issues my gaming friends and I have, these days, is that we actually have fully formed lives away from gaming. Girl friends, wives, kids, and non gaming friends take more and more of our time, and time is a precious commodity. It has gotten to the point where we can no longer spend many hours on world development and adventure creation, and so must rely upon authors to do these things for us. Great systems like Alternity come out and then die on the vine, because they lack adventure support for the aging likes of us. Many gaming systems are published and have absolutely NO support for anything, other than the basic game rules. There are many games out there that we'd like to try, but we simply don't have any spare amounts of that precious commodity to use.

I think that there's one basic truth, that is largely being ignored by many companies; the demographic is changing. Younger gamers are playing on consoles and computers. It's older gamers who are tending to drive the RPG market. There are certain things to consider, when you realize that truth.

So create all of the splat books, world books, and expansions that you want to but, if there simply isn't the time to create what is used WITH them, they're going to stay on the shelf.

So true!

Something just finally occurred to me--reading this post reminded me of something along the same lines--there seems to be a consensus that I am against all splat material in general. That may have been implied, but it wasn't fully my intent to be the basis of my complaints. So allow me draw the line more clearly.

4e made it really difficult to ignore new content as it came out. Not saying it couldn't be done, but it very difficult; and maybe even outright annoying. Anyone coming from previous editions who tried to run a season of Encounters might understand more than others. But the organization and layout of 4e made it very easy to run campaigns. For someone who does not have the time to invest heavily into world-creation or dungeon design, it was an absolute godsend! Essentially, a toolbox for DMs willing to make some compromises to make it work. (Nothing new there. We done it for years with other editions!)

Just for comparison sake--What Pathfinder does better is give offer more usable, playable material (i.e. adventures!) 4e was obsessed with cranking out more rules corrections, more character options, and more crunchy bits without a real sandbox to play in. Neverwinter Campaign was, by far, the BEST part of 4e for me, even though it still required some work to put together. Still, it provided a strong focus. Something to work with. But it still needed a lot of work, and there was very little direct support for it unless... wait for it!... you just consider everything published because it was Core!

Up until now, I suppose I haven't been forthcoming with any concrete ideas of what I would want in another version of DnD, if any. I certainly don't want the same thing I already have. That is very obvious.

I want a simple system of rules in one place that will let me play the basic, fundamental game at its basic level. I want it to have components and mechanics that enhance the game and make it fun to play the way it is presented. Modifications, expansions, and continued play should be added later as options for different styles or flavors of play. Players should be able to make enjoyable characters with choices that are neither cumbersome nor convoluted, both during character conceptualization and regular game play.

Expansions should mainly comprise of more "playable" materials (i.e. adventures and toolbox/components for running adventures) than rules. Campaign settings should offer their own lines for different "flavors" of the game. These, IMO, should be carried by more than a single publisher to support the core game and open the market for publishers AND buyers. License, if you must. Stop trying to do everything yourselves when you obviously do not have the resources (or commitment) to give a real effort!

Playing aids have been very huge, in case no one has been paying attention. Detailed maps as battle grids are always welcome! (What's the point of a beautifully colored map in the mod if your players can't see/interact with it on the table?) Tokens/pogs are a cheap, effective substitute for minis. Or minis! Themed dice sets. Cards. Things that enhance the experience at the table! People who love their games look for more ways to spend money on it, including me. (I personally look for meaningful things I could use and reuse, but I probably am not alone.)

And this is just stuff off the top of my head. I know I'm probably better off trying to do this myself, but maybe someone in out there will listen and make something happen before I get around to it. We all dream, don't we?

 

[Jacob Lewis]

It's weird, it's like this whole conversation has happened without acknowledging the existence of indie games. If you want D&D tropes in a game that's still crunchy but self-contained, try Dungeon World.

Already added it to my list when someone else mentioned it a few pages back!

 

[YRUSirius]

I want a simple system of rules in one place that will let me play the basic, fundamental game at its basic level. I want it to have components and mechanics that enhance the game and make it fun to play the way it is presented. Modifications, expansions, and continued play should be added later as options for different styles or flavors of play. Players should be able to make enjoyable characters with choices that are neither cumbersome nor convoluted, both during character conceptualization and regular game play.

I think that the new basic D&D might still be perfect for you and for people who feel the same about this. Just a good roleplaying game.

-YRUSirius

 

[D'karr]

Try enticing non-gamers with your favorite game which takes up multiple shelves and closet space.

That's the first problem, even for complex games with lots of rules you can distill the game to a base game that is very easy to get new players into. When I have people interested in a game, I already have pregenerated characters ready and ready to run 1-2 hour adventures to get them into it. I don't go showing them my basement collection of games and try to start a game with all the "options" on.

There must be a way!

Yeah, don't intimidate the newbie. You don't throw the frog into boiling water. You place the frog in water, and slowly turn up the heat until cooked.

 

[Ryujin]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I am married, have seven kids, and have my job. I also have a "hobby farm" with horses, donkeys, goats, and the like. Yes, I have most of the 3.5e splat books but my game is basically The World of Greyhawk + Stormwrack + 3.5e/d20. To this I add inspiration from OCEAN and Blue Planet , as well as my saltwater aquariums and a handful of websites. That's more than enough for world building and adventure hooks, so long as you have an overactive imagination, a willing suspension of disbelief, and a "somewhat less intact box".

I did quite a bit of adventure creation, in earlier life, both in provided settings and worlds created from whole cloth. I guess that motorcycling, semi-professional race photography, jewellery making, chainmail making, and occasionally writing a news piece (in addition to the day job) leaves me somewhat less time than your passtimes do. Member measurement is a pretty meaningless endeavour. We, each of us, have what we have and set our priorities accordingly.

More to the point, it's rather difficult for one person to carry the load. I'm sure that some people can game master for decades on end. I don't happen to be one of them. I rather enjoy playing, too, and most of my gaming friends are even more occupied with the detritus of life than am I. I've been taking some time lately to try and automate as much as possible and set up for game play by telepresence (oops, did I leave that 'hobby' out?), so that we can get the group together without needing to be in the same city, let alone room.

 

[Balesir]

I think there is too much reliance on companies to come up with new ideas or innovations that none of us really have. How do we know this is the only way an RPG is supposed to be made if nobody ever tried anything truly different than what we already know? Point is, I don't care for another game system so closely similar to ones I already have. Why should any of us be excited about the same thing regurgitated back at us because the plate is different? (Its still steak!)

<snip>

Try enticing non-gamers with your favorite game which takes up multiple shelves and closet space. I have shown them my various games, gave them a quick glance through each PHB, and asked their opinions about it. It is intimidating, even when I explained how most of it can be treated as optional. Their preference was usually the boardgames that had one 36-page booklet explaining how to play. You cannot tell me it is not a factor. That's nothing more than a denial than a willingness to address a possible problem with no easy (or risk-easy) solution. There must be a way!

I'll just redouble my earlier suggestion to take a look at Universalis, here. Its approach is so different that one of the main "criticisms" levelled against it is that "it's not really a roleplaying game". Well, let's see - you create an imaginary world, people it with imaginary characters and then take the role of those characters as they interact with one another and come into conflict with each other... Sounds pretty much like what we do in roleplaying games, to me. It's just done without any sort of "referee" or "Games Master" - just a group of imaginative players and a set of rules to describe how the "let's pretend" is modulated between them. Rules robust enough to spin out play into an extended campaign, if that's what you want to do. If you really are after something different, try it!

I'll offer a bonus tip, as well. Universalis is dead easy to play with any other game world out there. Someone just plonks down a "coin" and says something like "We're playing in original edition Greyhawk" and, voila, everything in Greyhawk canon has the force of a Statement (i.e. it can be changed, but it's harder to change and easier to object to).

 

[Aeolius]

Member measurement is a pretty meaningless endeavour. We, each of us, have what we have and set our priorities accordingly.

If you felt I was somehow judging one person's activities over another,it was certainly not my intent. I suppose world creation is what you make of it. I keep most of my game in my noggin and enjoy running games on the fly. Others, of course, may feel differently. While we're adding pastimes, I also keep saltwater aquariums and enjoy writing and dabbling in 3D modeling. I play keyboard and am attempting to learn the theremin. Spare time is at a premium. Never mind helping drop off and pick up kids (3 schools), and helping with dishes, laundry, trash, etc. I average 6 hours a sleep at night, typically in 2-hour shifts. I suppose everyone is busy nowadays.

I'm sure that some people can game master for decades on end. I don't happen to be one of them. I rather enjoy playing, too, and most of my gaming friends are even more occupied with the detritus of life than am I. I've been taking some time lately to try and automate as much as possible and set up for game play by telepresence (oops, did I leave that 'hobby' out?), so that we can get the group together without needing to be in the same city, let alone room.

Mind you, my last offline game was in 1995. I was the DM. The last time I was on the other side of the DM's Screen was in the late 80s. I "play" through my NPCs. As for telepresence, I tried to switch my game from IRC to roll20 but I was outvoted by my players. Luddites...

 

[Nellisir]

Just in case you were wondering dragonborn and tieflings tend to be far more popular than gnomes.

Actually, it looks like you might be wrong. Here's a brand-new, shiny, still-has-that-new-poll-smell, fresh-from-the-front-page poll that seems relevant:
http://gamingtonic.com/blog/2013/03/what-race-should-be-next-in-dd-next-open-play-test-poll-results/

I would have expected a tighter race. I get the appeal of half-elves, but they are pretty milquetoast. I mean, they're basically elf-lite. The half-orc makes some sense; it's the big bad brute icon. The 3-way tie between dragonborn, tieflings, and gnomes is interesting.