Roleplaying since the 80s and I'm really tired!

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
Back in the early 80s, a friend of the family introduced me to fantasy roleplaying games when I was about 12 years old. It was the Dungeons & Dragons Basic game in a red box, and I was hooked! Being in the military, my family moved around a lot so it wasn't always easy to find the right group to play with. Sometimes, there was no one around to share my hobby that had become my passion. As I grew into adulthood, changed jobs and locations (and even relationships), my love for the game stayed with me. Yet, I still kept up with the books, the supplements, and almost every product even remotely associated with the game. Every edition. Admittedly, fourth was the hardest for me to accept, but like with every edition before it, I found enough strengths and considerations to keep me vested in the game. I hung out for as long as I could, but the moment the Next edition was announced, I decided that I was done because, frankly, I'm just really tired of buying into new games I already play.

So why did I wait this long to say anything until now? Why do I even bother? Because I am 42 years old. I've been playing living with this game for about three decades. I have spent thousands of dollars and hours in one way or another. I believe I'm entitled to have a say in it whenever I decide. But as a loyal and dedicated fan, and now a former customer, I want it to be understood why some people, like myself, are done with all of this. I want it to be understood why I, at least, am no longer going along for the ride, or even care how good (or bad) the next product will be.

I am tired of spending more money for more versions of the same game I already have. Fourth edition was more different, which I actually appreciated, but it wasn't different enough. And I still have most of my previous editions, which are already tested and, more or less, complete. None are perfect, but after all these years, I've figured out how to avoid most of the common problems and pitfalls. I guess you can add that I'm tired of learning how to deal with new systems since they all have flaws, too.

I am tired of being dictated by this industry of what a roleplaying game is supposed to be and how to play it. I neither need nor want a wall full of text books to explain all the basic rules and the advanced rules, the variant rules and expansion rules, compendium rules, errated rules, discontinued rules, banned rules, and rules for making more rules. Nor do I need a character system with so many choices and options that most players become incapable of making any decisions in a reasonable amount of time before and during play. You don't need one million options available just so you can make the right one.

I am tired of companies being greedy. If you produce a good, quality product and make a profit from selling it, I'd say you're a successful and respected business. But if you spend more effort trying to create a business model that will get consumers to continuously give you more money for a product of poor or questionable quality, then you will inevitably end up in a boardroom with whatever remains of your various project teams and managers, scratching your heads while trying to figure out why your competitors are now doing so much better than you.

I am tired of paying for virtual goods and rented services in order to play a game. Yes, I can write out a character sheet by hand. I've been doing that probably since before a lot of gamers on these message boards were born. Doesn't mean I don't want to, especially with as much detail that is needed to fill out a functional character sheet for fourth edition (i.e. I shouldn't need to reference details on every one of my character abilities by looking it up between several handbooks, or even a virtual database). And I'm tired of character sheets that require multiple pages with an index.

I am tired of reading articles about what halflings are supposed to look like and how to recognize monsters we've seen re-imagined and reinvented for many years. I am tired of reading about modularity for a set of rules that has yet to show any real signs of stability. I am tired of hearing how our voices and opinions are important, except for those who do not want to move into another edition. I'm tired of assumptions being made that I would actually want to be sitting at a table with players playing the same game with different sets of rules. If I want to play first edition rules with first edition players, guess what?... I'm not inviting them to a table for Next edition! That game (and those players) already exist!

I'm tired how the type of die you roll is actually connected with the "feel" of true Dungeons and Dragons. Its not (or at least, it shouldn't be)! Its a game mechanic, and a very bad one at that. I would like to think that professional game designers would not hold themselves to an archaic and tired piece like the d20 in favor of better and different game mechanics. Its been more than 30 years, after all. Why are we still looking for ways to reinvent the same game system, over and over and....

(And in case you might ask, the true "feel" of any DnD game (to me) has very little to do with mechanics. It is a group of people, sitting around a table with make-believe characters and stories, collaborating to tell stories of adventure, action, suspense, and glory! It is about people having fun, not digging in rulebooks to find some obscure detail, or arguing about how all characters can be no better or worse than anyone else's, or whining about when/how their character is going to stand out in a table full of like-minded people wondering the same exact thing, etc.)

And finally, I am really tired of listening to other players who simply refuse to think for themselves. Whether it is at the game table, or on a message board, I can hear/read the same arguments and complaints caught in an endless loop. I know full well that writing this will prompt any number of responses from people who feel the need to defend against some imagined slight against them, their peers, their game, or their patron sponsor. And they will think I am a moron who needs to be reminded of what is so painfully obvious, like businesses need to make money, or no one is going to take away the games I already have, or that this little speech is based off someone else's somewhat famous rant (or the true original).

I am not here to rain on anybody's "happy", or pick a fight on the internet (because its just stupid and I don't have that much time to waste). I don't expect development on the new game to suddenly stop, or designers to suddenly rethink their strategy, and I certainly don't expect the new edition to fail. There is a lot of new blood ready to jump on with whatever comes on for the next 20-30 years before they, too, will grow tired. Maybe one day they will be making a statement like this, and that will be fine because I know the game is still going on. I couldn't tell you how its doing, and I probably won't care by then anyway.

My point is that its still just a game, or at least it should be treated like one. It may be a very important and influential one, as it has been to me, but I think it is important that I am able to let someone know why I (and maybe others like me) have decided to stay with what we have, make the best of what we got, and say goodbye to whatever may come. We are just tired of this business. Not the game.
 
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I understand not wanting to have to buy new books. I got burned out on that in the 2000s. If you have a game you play and enjoy, might as well stick with it if investing in a new edition is that frustrating for you. Your concerns seem reasonable.

Personally, I am happy to give next a try and invest in a few books but I understand why some people get tired of new editions.
 

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
Thanks for the sentiment, BRG!

Now I have a couple of questions for you. Do you think there is any other way to design and market a successful tabletop RPG that doesn't follow the traditional formulas? In other words, is it just commonly accepted that a business model designed and marketed for a niche audience at least 20 years ago is still the best/only way today? Can there be a robust, fun, and viable RPG system/product that doesn't require volumes of books and rules to make it work?
 
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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Can there be a robust, fun, and viable RPG system/product that doesn't require volumes of books and rules to make it work?

There hundreds of RPGs out there. Many of them probably doing exactly what you are asking for here. The only question is whether you and your group of friends actually take the time to find them, learn them and play them.
 

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
There hundreds of RPGs out there. Many of them probably doing exactly what you are asking for here. The only question is whether you and your group of friends actually take the time to find them, learn them and play them.
And what if the only answer to your only question is "yes"? I don't suppose I could rely on you to name a few titles that I wouldn't already know about, or tried. Could I? ;)

I never meant to imply that there aren't any out there, or that we haven't found any that we enjoy. But the ones we have found are not typically classified as true RPGs. They are often lacking something. I'm thinking there is uncharted territory out there that has yet to be breached. But generally speaking, I think most major companies, having ownership of most major brands, have a singular idea of what constitutes a "true" roleplaying game.
 

Droogie

Explorer
I am the same age as you JL, and I got into gaming at the same age as well.although I haven't reached the same level of burnout as you (still curious how 5e will turn out) I share your nostalgia of the days when a D&D character could fit on a single sheet of notebook paper.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
Now I have a couple of questions for you. Do you think there is any other way to design and market a successful tabletop RPG that doesn't follow the traditional formulas? In other words, is it just commonly accepted that a business model designed and marketed for a niche audience at least 20 years ago is still the best/only way today? Can there be a robust, fun, and viable RPG system/product that doesn't require volumes of books and rules to make it work?
I am absolutely certain that there are - lots!

The hardest part is figuring out what you want (ain't it always so?). I think there must be some sort of "mid-life crisis" effect in RPGs, because I went through a "frustrated" period around 10 years ago (and I'm ~10 years older than you and started with OD&D in around 1977).

As a few pointers/cheap trial baloons for you, you might look at:

The Pool - get it for free here. An entire roleplaying system in 3 pages. Just to let you see what can be done. Free. 'Nuff said.

Fiasco - $12 from RPGNow; you can see it being played by Will Wheaton and friends on the Tabletop 'net show here.

Inspectres - some really fine ideas for a game with real laughter potential. Think "Ghost Busters with several twists".

Universalis - available here. No GM, shared world building - very different, and not for everyone, but we have had some great stories out of it.

PrimeTime Adventures - currently out of print, but if you see a copy it's well worth getting to see a very different approach to RPG design. Made to let you play the best TV series that never was.

Depending on your tastes there are hundreds of small press options and indie RPGs - a few offhand are Burning Wheel, Dogs in the Vineyard, 3:16, Savage Worlds, Steal Away Jordan, Spirit of the Century/FATE - take a browse here and here to see some lists and descriptions. The second one is in the UK, but it has a good "indie" RPG section (which is what I linked to).

What roleplaying games can cover is limited, quite literally, only by our imaginations - and those are vast. If you are getting jaded with them, it can only be that you haven't explored off what has become the "beaten path" for you! ;)
 
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darjr

I crit!
I think the only way out of the supplement treadmill is by growing the hobby. I think it was Peter Adkison and Ryan Dancey that originally wanted to slowly build D&D with 3rd edition and concentrate on building the player base. To use community building to grow the hobby and by that way grow the profitability of D&D.

I think their attempt was scrapped, for whatever reason, and never really got a chance to work. I think it can. I hope it can. I think in many ways Paizo is trying to adopt that model, and I think WotC is going to try it as well. I wish them both success.

edit to add I think it takes a bigger company with a large potential following in order to do things like support Pathfinder Society or the Paizo convention and the community it fosters, or Encounters in stores and to be at as many conventions as possible and do things like the PAX celebrity games.
 

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
Paizo did something different, and it worked. They offered subscription models for their printed physical content. They focused the brand for a specific world/setting with an emphasis on gameplay and adventures. They developed supplemental lines that supported not only their own themes and product subscriptions, but how the game is played and enhanced at the table. Specifically, the came up with minis that directly support a particular adventure path, themed dice, index cards for items and such, and so much more! I've enjoyed reading through their products, and even picked up a few things, but I could never truly be interested in a Pathfinder system because... wait for it!... too many darned books again!! ;)

I am interested in their card game, however. This may be what I'm looking for. Maybe not. I think there is always room for innovation. We just haven't seen enough of it yet. ;)
 

Elf Witch

First Post
I am fifty five and have been playing for a long time. I sometimes feel this way not about new supplements I enjoy new supplements but the constant tweaking and changing of the rule system gets to me. At least with 3E you could tweak your Ad&D worlds and characters to fit but when 4E came out that was impossible it totally wiped out 30 something years of the game. That was just one of the many issues I had with it. It is why I am looking at Next with a jaundiced eye and really have we will see after it comes out.

It was not just WOTC who did this Shadowrun 4E was were I drew the line and said no more because it also suffered from the lets wipe out everything that came before and change the nature and feel of the game.

My biggest reason for disliking a lot of the rule changes is that when they go to the point of making it impossible to continue a game with a few tweaks I get annoyed at having to completely redo my game and characters especially if I was not really having major issues with the rule set.
 

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