D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

[Zardnaar]

Adventures can also sell well but WoTC has been drinking from the core book well with 4 sets of core books in 10 years (3.0/3.5/4th/Essentials). To sell core books you need fuel though (adventures) and Gygax himself said they were selling like hot cakes back in the golden age. 1 million copies of Keep on the Borderlands were sold IIRC.

That is how Paizo beat WoTC as well. WoTC used TSR sales figures and cut all the TSR lines which were a waste of money and diversifying the fanbase and a planescape adventure or whatever is only going to sell to Planescape fans. They came close to the glory days with 3.0 and the OGL, 3.5 in hindsight was probably a mistake even if IMHO it was better than 3.0.

Mechanics do not matter, and D&D is a fire that needs fuel and without that fuel you are in trouble. DMs need just as much attention as the players at least long term and that is what 3rd and 4th ed more or less ignored. No point having the worlds fastest car that is red if one can't find fuel for it (players/adventures).

"Player entitlement" is a bit of a loaded term but it is more or less what 3rd and 4th ed catered to. Problem there is you have the monkeys running the zoo.

 

[Hussar]

ICv2 has been showing Pathfinder as No. 1 and D&D as No. 2 for some time. The latest ICv2 report shows D&D dropping to No. 3, with the Star Wars RPG in 2nd place. To reverse that trend, D&D Next is going to have to be a whole lot better than the stuff that's been pumped out so far. An interesting start has degenerated into an attempt to regurgitate a lot of old ideas in new costumes. Unfortunately, D&D Next is turning into nothing so much as a big yawner.

Swimming a bit upthread, but, the ICv2 reports get touted an awful lot and I don't think people really know what they are. ICv2 reports are based on brick and mortar store sales, only. So, yeah, I would think that a game that hasn't put out a new physical title in over a year would be taking a back seat to games that are still regularly publishing physical books. Not a big shocker there.

Since ICv2 doesn't take any online trading into account, I think that the reports are becoming more and more irrelevant in today's market.

 

[Zardnaar]

One can also look at Ebay sales and kick starters to find out what may not be selling but what people are wanting.There are a few million dollar+ kick starters floating around for RPG stuff with names like Monte Cook and Pathfinder attached to them.

 

[Obryn]

Mechanics do not matter ... "Player entitlement" is a bit of a loaded term but it is more or less what 3rd and 4th ed catered to. Problem there is you have the monkeys running the zoo.

SYNTAX ERROR DOES NOT PARSE

One can also look at Ebay sales and kick starters to find out what may not be selling but what people are wanting.There are a few million dollar+ kick starters floating around for RPG stuff with names like Monte Cook and Pathfinder attached to them.

And also for more narrative games like FATE Core, Dungeon World, and 13th Age. And from what I understand, Numenera (though I could be wrong on this) veers sharply towards less-traditional mechanics, Monte Cook or no.

The million+ PF kickstarters are for MMOs, not the RPG, so I wouldn't read much into that other than they have a fanbase who's willing to blindly give Ryan Dancey a lot of money.

-O

 

[Jester David]

Swimming a bit upthread, but, the ICv2 reports get touted an awful lot and I don't think people really know what they are. ICv2 reports are based on brick and mortar store sales, only. So, yeah, I would think that a game that hasn't put out a new physical title in over a year would be taking a back seat to games that are still regularly publishing physical books. Not a big shocker there.

Since ICv2 doesn't take any online trading into account, I think that the reports are becoming more and more irrelevant in today's market.

But Paizo has confirmed Pathfinder was outselling 4e as early as 4e. And online stores use the same distributors as brick and mortal stores.

Physical stores are an indication of the health of the hobby. You're not going to order a $50 book on a whim. Stores aid new sales.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree with you about the 4e combats. They are certainly elegant but they are very formulaic. I don't consider that a good thing. Every combat is a numbers game, (they are in other editions as well) but to me 4e was much more obviously a numbers game.

For many that was one of the problem with 4e combats. They were VERY formulaic. The 4e combat system is a nice mini game of positioning, but that became the point of 4e.

Make sure to have class that can block, make sure to have a class than can set up the guy that kills, make sure to have a guy that kills, and if you want a guy that throws enemies around go for it. It is exactly that formula of 4e combat that got me bored after 6 months of playing it.

If you are just going to run endless instances of basically the same 5-on-5 'steel-cage-death-match' fight with no real interactivity or unique factors involved then yes at some point it is going to just get boring. The whole point of 4e's system is it sets you up solidly with the basics and gives you the tools to make things that are more cool.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

If you are just going to run endless instances of basically the same 5-on-5 'steel-cage-death-match' fight with no real interactivity or unique factors involved then yes at some point it is going to just get boring. The whole point of 4e's system is it sets you up solidly with the basics and gives you the tools to make things that are more cool.

Very much this.

The fact that a lot of the modules were not put together to take advantage of 4e's strengths certainly don't help matters any.

 

[DMZ2112]

Do D&D5 threads on this forum ever /not/ devolve into people arguing about whether D&D4 had value? Because I find this super disappointing. I am here to talk about D&D5. I don't mind using D&D4 as a comparator, but that does not seem to be what is happening.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Do D&D5 threads on this forum ever /not/ devolve into people arguing about whether D&D4 had value? Because I find this super disappointing. I am here to talk about D&D5. I don't mind using D&D4 as a comparator, but that does not seem to be what is happening.

No, it never happens, because as soon as someone makes the comparison, the dung starts to fly, and most of it is aimed at 4e; the red-headed stepchild of D&D-dom. Naturally, the 4e adherents come to the defence of their edition of choice, which is more or less constantly under attack. No amount of explaining our position ever seems to help, because we're "wrong," or are assured that, "don't worry, you'll get your tactical module eventually."

It's every bit as frustrating from where I sit.

 

[Pour]

But Paizo has confirmed Pathfinder was outselling 4e as early as 4e. And online stores use the same distributors as brick and mortal stores.

Physical stores are an indication of the health of the hobby. You're not going to order a $50 book on a whim. Stores aid new sales.

I'm happy to agree brick'n'mortar stores are AN indicator, but not the be-all, end-all indicator. I really don't think you can adequately weigh DDI + WotC book sales specific to 4e against anything else (and I imagine the reprints, novels, board games, tiles, and dungeon command must be raking something appreciable), because as we all love saying we don't have the numbers. Everyone has a 'sense' for these things, it seems, except the 'senses' range from 4e tanked to 4e did just fine and the bars of expectation are what really differ between companies. I'm wondering if they saw the potential for greater gains taking from all edition groups and went for it. I kind of admire that gusto, leaning entirely on the brand strength for support. Eh, for what it's worth, I haven't bought a book from a physical store in 5 years (none by me save one really bad one), but I own over a dozen 4e books.

I believe, emphasis believe and not "know", many of us 4e players are still waiting to buy some books. I mean DDI convinced me to wait out several purchases, including Monster Vault and Book of Vile Darkness, until whichever time the Compendium is shut down. When I can not longer access their information, then I'll consider buying them (Or just home-brew, it's really that easy).

I do recall Lisa offering the outselling point (offered during that thread as a thinly-veiled dig under the guise of elation, in my opinion, but neither here nor there). I can only assume she meant in physical stores, in which case I would not be surprised PF outsold 4e, not at all. I believe they were releasing easily x3 to x5 the 4e product on a monthly basis, compatible with three different iterations of the game with little fiddling. Now they hold almost exclusive print sway, not counting the reprints, so the numbers won't be changing for awhile.

I'm not sure how much it really matters, though. 4e, PF, and now 5e all exist in the same space and their sales are all 'weaker' for it. And one or more are the wrong direction for some or all of us hehe.

And I am sad to say I buy $50 books on a whim, and pledge as much with damned Kickstarter when I see things like True Ways, Shadowgate, and Torment: Tides.