D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

[billd91]

Does it matter if 1e didn't have a 20th level cutoff and 2e added support past it? It's clear in both that balance was planned over the full career of the PC, which had potentially unlimited potential. Either way, the balance is planned past the demi-human limits.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Again, citation please. Open your 1e PHB. Please cite any table or rule which cuts off at 20th level.

/edit

Just took Pemerton's advice and looked at the 2e PHB. Yup, the chart does cut off at 20th. Granted, most progression stops at name level - around 10-12th, but, yup the chart is extended for another 8 levels of flat progression.

Still not really seeing how that translates to a 20th level cut off.

@Ahnehnois I'm not sure you can say things like that. It looks a lot more like there is a group of people who are very vocal, but very, very uneducated about the history of the game and what the game actually states. I would say that these posters really should never represent anything more than a fringe of gamers and can be pretty easily ignored.

From Wikipedia: Maximum level is standardized at 20 rather than varying by class. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editio...ons#Advanced_Dungeons_.26_Dragons_2nd_edition).

Why don't you go and actually look in a copy of the Player's Handbook for 2nd edition D&D? You will see that a Wizard's level goes all the way to 20. Fighter needs 3,000,000 to reach 20th while the Wizard needs 3,750,000. He gets 1 6th level at 12 and at 18 he get's 1 9th level.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but you might want to go and check your sources again. You have been proven wrong but you continue to argue.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Does it matter if 1e didn't have a 20th level cutoff and 2e added support past it? It's clear in both that balance was planned over the full career of the PC, which had potentially unlimited potential. Either way, the balance is planned past the demi-human limits.

It matters because their theory has been debunked. They claim that an elf is a better wizard than a human and yet the human can gain 9th level spells while the elf could not but then their argument was that "most people in their universe" don't actually play games that high so it must be adopted as a universal concept.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I'm not sure you can say things like that. It looks a lot more like there is a group of people who are very vocal, but very, very uneducated about the history of the game and what the game actually states. I would say that these posters really should never represent anything more than a fringe of gamers and can be pretty easily ignored.

Problem is, I don't think they will be. After all, they certainly have had WotC's ear for the past five years.

 

[Zardnaar]

Looks like D&DN is going into the toilet and it is actually getting worse.

 

[Hussar]

Does it matter if 1e didn't have a 20th level cutoff and 2e added support past it? It's clear in both that balance was planned over the full career of the PC, which had potentially unlimited potential. Either way, the balance is planned past the demi-human limits.

But, no it isn't. Since play almost never actually goes past the demi-human limits, those limits are largely not coming up in play.

Are you going to claim that a majority of AD&D games progressed past 12th level?
[MENTION=91812]ForeverSlayer[/MENTION] - as has been mentioned several times, you are referring to the wrong version of D&D. People were referencing OD&D and 1e D&D. Additionally, while the tables do cut off at 20th, there is nothing preventing you from progressing further. The game was never designed to play from 1 to 20th.

Also note, that in 2e D&D, Magic User Spell progression means that an 11th level elf wizard gets 6th level spells.

Meh, cherry picking examples and ignoring any and all other evidence - such is the stuff edition wars are made of and I'm stepping out of this one. No thanks ladies and gentlemen.

 

[billd91]

But, no it isn't. Since play almost never actually goes past the demi-human limits, those limits are largely not coming up in play.

Are you going to claim that a majority of AD&D games progressed past 12th level?

This is evidence the game wasn't designed with the full career potential of the character in mind? That many games never got that far? That doesn't make any sense. If you think the game failed to achieve balance, rather than incorporate balance in design, that might make for a successful argument. But arguing against the design's intent is barking up the wrong tree.

By the way, a game didn't have to reach above 12th level for demi-human level limits to have an effect. Don't assume the elf wizard's limit was the only level limit that would matter.

Also, I think people are forgetting that playing an elf, much less an elf wizard, did have one significant drawback compared to playing a human, even under 11th level. Can anyone name it?

 

[ForeverSlayer]

But, no it isn't. Since play almost never actually goes past the demi-human limits, those limits are largely not coming up in play.

Are you going to claim that a majority of AD&D games progressed past 12th level?

@ForeverSlayer - as has been mentioned several times, you are referring to the wrong version of D&D. People were referencing OD&D and 1e D&D. Additionally, while the tables do cut off at 20th, there is nothing preventing you from progressing further. The game was never designed to play from 1 to 20th.

Also note, that in 2e D&D, Magic User Spell progression means that an 11th level elf wizard gets 6th level spells.

Meh, cherry picking examples and ignoring any and all other evidence - such is the stuff edition wars are made of and I'm stepping out of this one. No thanks ladies and gentlemen.

Who doesn't go past a certain point? Who are all these people that you are speaking of? Do you have any statistical data to back up your claim? Before you ask me the same I don't need to produce any because I have the rules of the game to back me up.

 

[Ratskinner]

Definitely not getting the impression that 5e is heading down the right path for everyone.

hmmm...is it heading down the right path for anyone?

 

[Hussar]

This is evidence the game wasn't designed with the full career potential of the character in mind? That many games never got that far? That doesn't make any sense. If you think the game failed to achieve balance, rather than incorporate balance in design, that might make for a successful argument. But arguing against the design's intent is barking up the wrong tree.

By the way, a game didn't have to reach above 12th level for demi-human level limits to have an effect. Don't assume the elf wizard's limit was the only level limit that would matter.

Also, I think people are forgetting that playing an elf, much less an elf wizard, did have one significant drawback compared to playing a human, even under 11th level. Can anyone name it?

Can't be raised? Or, was it the ability to spot secret doors automatically? Or wear armor? Or living virtually forever? Immunities to magic? Oh, wait, drawbacks...

If virtually no one actually played that high, then as a balance mechanic, it's pretty failed, since the balance doesn't come into play.

Note, this started with the idea of why play a human Magic User instead of an Elven Magic User. You can pull up other races, but, now you're shifting the goalposts.