D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

[billd91]

Can't be raised? Or, was it the ability to spot secret doors automatically? Or wear armor? Or living virtually forever? Immunities to magic? Oh, wait, drawbacks...

If virtually no one actually played that high, then as a balance mechanic, it's pretty failed, since the balance doesn't come into play.

Note, this started with the idea of why play a human Magic User instead of an Elven Magic User. You can pull up other races, but, now you're shifting the goalposts.

I'm not shifting the goalposts one jot. You're the one who made the broader implication about level limits - most of which hit notably sooner than 11th level. But then I also think you're making an over-broad generalization about "virtually no one" playing game that high in level. I know of several groups that regularly did. I don't expect us to be anything more than a minority, but calling us "virtually no one" is probably overstating the degree of our minority.

And yes, the answer is can't be raised. Getting to 12th level or above without needing to be raised at least once in 1e/2e? That's tough, especially for a character with a d4 hit die and probably no Con bonus to his hit points.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Not if you never get there.


It's not a benefit if you never get to those levels.

On the "geared to 20th level" thing, I assume you are talking about the 2nd ed AD&D PHB. 1st ed AD&D, as @AbdulAlhazred has pointed out, has no such "gearing". (And even 2nd ed AD&D isn't actuallly designed to be playable at those levels, given it's architecture is more-or-less identical to 1st ed AD&D).

On the "how many games got to those level", here is Ryan Dancey's data from the famours WotC market research:

Years playing       Average Sessions before Restart (New Characters)

                       
<=1 Year                          8.8
>1-5 Years                       12.9
>5 Years                          19.6

Total                                15.4

Given the typical rate of levelling would be quite a bit less than one level per session, I think we can see that the typical game is not reaching 20th level!


I'm pretty sure you two are opening different books. ForeverSlayer is talking about 2nd ed AD&D; AbdulAlhazred about 1st ed AD&D.

Also, Abdul, you have made a mistake with high level MU spells. In Gygax's PHB, wizard'gs gett 1st to 5th level spelss at 1st to 9th level, as you said, but then it flips to an even-numbered progression ie 6th level spells at 12th level through to 9th level spells at 18th level (Archmage).

In my own play experience the rewards kicked in somewere around 5th to 9th level (Fireball, Confusion, Charm Monster, Teleport, Transmute Rock to Mud), and an elf or even half-elf wizard got to play to those levels.

Yeah, 1e knowledge grows dim. It has been a solid 25 years now. As for 2e... There's no more significance to 20th level than in 1e really. I don't have a 2e PHB in front of me and spent a lot less time with it, so I don't specifically remember the details of the layout of the tables, but the 'big 4' progression was identical, I do remember that, in effect your 1e wizard, rogue, fighter, cleric was fully legal with no changes in 2e. It is quite possible tables broke off a 20, but they had to break off somewhere.

The point stands, there was no SPECIFIC cut-off. Unlike 3e where it was clearly stated right up front that the game had 20 levels, or 4e where it clearly has exactly 30 levels. Thus it is VERY hard to say that there was an intent for pre-3e games to extend to a specific level. ForeverSlayer himself states his group played a game that was at level 25 (we played one or two of these too). IME when we did this, early on in our 'Monty Haul' phase of play the rules were very little help. I'd note that PERSONALLY, I never had a character that exceeded 14th level. It just got silly. My 14th level wizard AS IT WAS in 1e defeated some pretty silly challenges, like a whole CITY full of beholders (don't ask, we didn't FIGHT them all, but we pretty well got the better of them, there were a few tight spots in that one though). The finale was destroying Demogorgon. There really isn't a whole lot further to go after that.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

From Wikipedia: Maximum level is standardized at 20 rather than varying by class. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editio...ons#Advanced_Dungeons_.26_Dragons_2nd_edition).

Why don't you go and actually look in a copy of the Player's Handbook for 2nd edition D&D? You will see that a Wizard's level goes all the way to 20. Fighter needs 3,000,000 to reach 20th while the Wizard needs 3,750,000. He gets 1 6th level at 12 and at 18 he get's 1 9th level.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but you might want to go and check your sources again. You have been proven wrong but you continue to argue.

I see NOTHING which indicates that 20th is some sort of level limit in 2e. I guess you COULD argue that it is, the PHB doesn't mention there being a limit or not. OTOH nothing in 2e ever discusses limiting the game to 20 levels and there are plenty of gods etc that are explicitly classed at higher than 20th. Frankly I've never before ever heard anyone suggest that the game had a specific upper level limit to what was supposed to be played. My understanding, based on playing from the very early days of D&D, was that games would go on and characters would be played to whatever limits were practical and desired, nothing was hard-coded. I have never before personally talked to someone who claimed that there was a hard limit before 3e. Still, I guess if you started with 2e and had no contact with the wider tradition of D&D and just read that PHB you might fairly conclude that there was a limit of 20 levels. Nobody that played 1e or earlier would have concluded that, nor do I suspect that the 2e designers meant to imply that, they simply didn't see a point in detailing 21st+ level material, given that even 14th level was about as high as people normally went anyway.

 

[billd91]

I see NOTHING which indicates that 20th is some sort of level limit in 2e. I guess you COULD argue that it is, the PHB doesn't mention there being a limit or not. OTOH nothing in 2e ever discusses limiting the game to 20 levels and there are plenty of gods etc that are explicitly classed at higher than 20th. Frankly I've never before ever heard anyone suggest that the game had a specific upper level limit to what was supposed to be played. My understanding, based on playing from the very early days of D&D, was that games would go on and characters would be played to whatever limits were practical and desired, nothing was hard-coded. I have never before personally talked to someone who claimed that there was a hard limit before 3e. Still, I guess if you started with 2e and had no contact with the wider tradition of D&D and just read that PHB you might fairly conclude that there was a limit of 20 levels. Nobody that played 1e or earlier would have concluded that, nor do I suspect that the 2e designers meant to imply that, they simply didn't see a point in detailing 21st+ level material, given that even 14th level was about as high as people normally went anyway.

The 2e DMG advised the DM to encourage retirement by 20th level without closing that door completely. Specific rules for spell advancement or XPs didn't appear until DM Option: High Level Campaigns in 1995.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

The 2e DMG advised the DM to encourage retirement by 20th level without closing that door completely. Specific rules for spell advancement or XPs didn't appear until DM Option: High Level Campaigns in 1995.

*must spread XP radda radda*

Thank you very much for actually pointing that out.

One other thing anyway. What's the level 20 cap have to do with anything anyway? If you want to go that route then it helps my case even more because it could mean that a human will just keep on going while an elf will not.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Some of you really need to go back read through the 2nd edition books.

 

[Hussar]

*must spread XP radda radda*

Thank you very much for actually pointing that out.

One other thing anyway. What's the level 20 cap have to do with anything anyway? If you want to go that route then it helps my case even more because it could mean that a human will just keep on going while an elf will not.

Well, the point is, you are trying to claim facts that are actually not true, and then trying to claim that others should be checking the sources, when you cannot be bothered to do it. You've flat out claimed that AD&D was balanced across 20 levels. That is only possibly true in Second Edition D&D (which wasn't the edition being discussed) and, even then, only kinda true because there is nothing actually stopping characters from progressing beyond 20th.

There is no AD&D version of Epic Level Play.

Of course, the point is largely moot since, even Bill91 admits that play into higher levels is only a small minority of players. A balance mechanic that doesn't come up in play is hardly an effective balance mechanic.

As it stands, there are FAR more advantages to being an Elf wizard than a Human Wizard.

Or, better yet, an Elf Thief vs a Human Thief.

 

[billd91]

Well, the point is, you are trying to claim facts that are actually not true, and then trying to claim that others should be checking the sources, when you cannot be bothered to do it. You've flat out claimed that AD&D was balanced across 20 levels. That is only possibly true in Second Edition D&D (which wasn't the edition being discussed) and, even then, only kinda true because there is nothing actually stopping characters from progressing beyond 20th.

There is no AD&D version of Epic Level Play.

Not true. The GM Option: High Level Campaigns is definitely a precursor to Epic level play, including some different rules past level 20. 2e is still AD&D. It's every bit as much AD&D as 1e was. What people need to do is specify which version of AD&D they mean.

Of course, the point is largely moot since, even Bill91 admits that play into higher levels is only a small minority of players. A balance mechanic that doesn't come up in play is hardly an effective balance mechanic.

Wrong again. I said we were most likely a minority - I never said small minority. I don't know how big a segment of the gaming population we were, nor do you.

As it stands, there are FAR more advantages to being an Elf wizard than a Human Wizard.

Unless you do happen to play into levels higher than 11th. Or get killed.

Or, better yet, an Elf Thief vs a Human Thief.

Finally, on that we more or less agree.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Unless you do happen to play into levels higher than 11th. Or get killed.

I'm not really invested in this silly argument, but that depends again on which edition you're talking about. In 2e, Elf wizards capped at 15, and with the optional advancement rules, with a 19 Int, could hit level 19.

Pretty much every DM I ever played with ignored the level limit rules in any case. Though, interestingly, it never came up, ever, in any campaign I played in, including some 5+ year ones of weekly games, so it was a pretty academic discussion for us to even have. Highest level character in our groups that entire time was again, interestingly, an elf wizard (mine), and he only barely managed to attain 11th level before we switched to 3.x. Every other character's advancement in all those years of campaigning got stalled at 9th or 10th level, right around the time that their XP charts really started to slow their advancement to a crawl. I wonder if that was intentional...

In any case, I fail to understand what this has to do with the degree to which 5e is failing to satisfy everyone or not.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Well, the point is, you are trying to claim facts that are actually not true, and then trying to claim that others should be checking the sources, when you cannot be bothered to do it. You've flat out claimed that AD&D was balanced across 20 levels. That is only possibly true in Second Edition D&D (which wasn't the edition being discussed) and, even then, only kinda true because there is nothing actually stopping characters from progressing beyond 20th.

There is no AD&D version of Epic Level Play.

Of course, the point is largely moot since, even Bill91 admits that play into higher levels is only a small minority of players. A balance mechanic that doesn't come up in play is hardly an effective balance mechanic.

As it stands, there are FAR more advantages to being an Elf wizard than a Human Wizard.

Or, better yet, an Elf Thief vs a Human Thief.

No offense to Bill but when did he represent the gaming community at large? You have absolutely no idea what so ever as to how many people played in high level games nor do you have the legitimate authority to make that claim. I read the books and the numbers go to 20 so the game is designed to go to 20. The book states that demihumans have level limits as a balance factor while humans have no limits.

I know of many groups who went all the way to 20 and beyond but I have no authority or data to say exactly what portion of the gaming community we were in and neither do you, that is why we turn to the book.