Gods and their temples in your games

[Derren]

Anyway, I have heard a lot of people who use the "tie the power of a god to its number of followers" idea, but I've never heard anybody using a system to keep track of such number. Even if you do that, the numbers are presumably from the thousands up, so it's probably not worth having headaches figuring out if Joe the Blacksmith is a 75% worshiper while Jim the Cartwright is only a 35%

Thats depends on what a follower actually is, hence the question. Do the the normal persons who worship several deities count and if yes how? Or does everyone in the setting just worship one god (and if yes, why)?

 

[Elf Witch]

Ferghis:
7. What happens to a soul after they die? If they end up going to different places, how are the destinations chosen?

I ask this because the lower planes seem to have a large number of souls to "deal" with, while I think most people, in most settings, would worship deities residing in the upper planes. More specifically, aside from some noteworthy exceptions (Orcus, Asmodeus, Bane) most of the rulers of the lower planes (demons, devils, and others) are usually regarded as lesser deities, if that. How do they get such a large "share" of souls?

I usually handle it like this who was the person in life did they worship a certain god. If they didn't and they were good they usually go to one of the planes that are good. If they were evil it can be a toss up of who gets the soul to torment. The abyssal and infernal planes often steal souls.

Sometimes souls get a choice say you are an elven worshiper of Pelor the soul since it was good it could go to the elven lands of the gods or to Pelor. I usually have the god of death clerics guide the souls to where they want to go. One reason necromancy is so evil in some of my games is that the soul gets trapped in other games as long as the soul has been processed then it is just a empty vessel so necromancy is not evil and some families sell the bodies of their loved ones to necromancers.

 

[SkidAce]

That's basically what I normally assume in my campaigns. One cleric = one deity, but everybody else can and does "worship" many deities normally.

Anyway, I have heard a lot of people who use the "tie the power of a god to its number of followers" idea, but I've never heard anybody using a system to keep track of such number. Even if you do that, the numbers are presumably from the thousands up, so it's probably not worth having headaches figuring out if Joe the Blacksmith is a 75% worshiper while Jim the Cartwright is only a 35%

Prior to inquiring DND, WotC had a reference book called "The Primal Order". Overall I enjoyed it. Lot's of great concepts, and it tracked "faith" from followers. (As a whole, not individual levels)

 

[Kalontas]

My view on gods is heavily influenced by Greek mythology. Gods are very real, and very active. They meddle in the affairs of the mortals whenever they feel like it, and most of them are neutral on the good-evil axis. They're one big, dysfunctional family so while there might be disagreements, there usually isn't much warfare, even between good and evil gods.

You can't kill a god, at all. At their level of power, the magic that binds them is strong enough than not even other gods can disperse it. Of course they have a destructible body, but it's really, really hard to destroy it due to all the resistances and other natural qualities of a god. Also, once god's body is destroyed, the soul leaves and either turns the killer into ash on the spot (if he had enough mana left) and/or leaves the spot and slowly reforms on the divine plane - depending on the god's power level and its mana left, it can take from almost instant to up to years. Oh, I forgot to mention that disembodied god can just possess any vacant bodies nearby and use them as the next avatar so if any of your party members perished during the fight with the deity, he's not getting resurrected.

All in all, getting divine enemies is generally a bad idea. Getting divine allies can be very beneficial.

EDIT: Also, any mortal can become a god, as it's simply a magnitude of power that grants you all the qualities. Beyond level 30 you're a lesser deity with all it entails. Of course, if gods don't think you deserve that rank, they will try to stop you before you reach that point.

 

[Zaltys]

[English isn't my first language, so apologies if this isn't readable...]

Theology differs a lot from normal in my current campaign.
I'll try to sum up the setting: the infighting among gods got so out of control that the whole reality collapsed into primal chaos, taking most of the gods with it. Mortal souls were stuck with no place to go and only a few small gods survived. None of them were skilled at creation, but they eventually managed to build a new reality. Flawed one, but it's better than nothing.

(It was actually a cooperative work by two gaming groups. Everyone chose a god to play and contributed some things and rules to the setting. And once the world was finished, we started a campaign there with normal characters.)

Can you kill them?

Certainly. But only a complete madman would consider that, since killing even one of the remaining gods might erase the whole reality.

Do your good temples all get along?

No. Some good gods are on bad terms (Redemption <> Justice), while some of the evil ones get along fine with everyone. It depends a lot on their portfolios.

There are no racial gods. Religion is more about belief than race. Some races are still naturally inclined towards certain beliefs, but most commoners pay respect to multiple gods or even to the whole pantheon.

As for the afterlife? It is determined by the beliefs and actions of the dead. Most souls are claimed by the god whose beliefs match those, but if it's not a clear-cut case the mortal gets to choose between two or more gods. Each god has their own realm and afterlife, and although most try to build utopias, some only consider mortals their playthings.

Raise dead is not guaranteed to work. Some gods demand reincarnation instead... and some are completely unwilling to release the soul without a very good reason.

 

[Celebrim]

I am curious on how different DMs handle and use the gods in their games. Can you kill them...

Yes, though it would be extraordinarily difficult for a mortal to do so. Mortals have been known to slay divine avatars however.

...do they play a major part in your world?

The way I try to explain it to people is if a person from my world went to medieval Europe they should be shocked by the lack of involvement of the clergy in the day to day lives of the people. The Western separation between secular and sacred, between private and public, doesn't really exist in my campaign world. In effect, one church or the other controls virtually every aspect of social and economic life. The public baths are run by a church. The homeless shelter is run by a church. The streets are cleaned by a church. All the gymnasiums are owned by a different church. The hospitals are ran by churches. The orphanages are ran by churchs. The undertakers are run by a different church. In many cases, most of the butchers are laybrothers in a church. No professional army will take the field without a priest along to bless the affair. Every trade and business belongs to a guild and each guild funds a shrine or temple a pays for the upkeep of a priest if they are able, and nominally at least that priest is the head of the guild (or rather the representative of the head of the guild, the diety) and looks to the priest for guidance. Each guild and business is inspected, overseen, and regulated by a church, and for most people education and schools means a temple. Even the head of the thieves guild in the city I started the game in is a priest(ess).

Likewise, I always try to have a god appear to the players during the kick off adventure (though, because of player choices, they ended up missing that scene in my current game). I see the involvement of the gods in the lives of the PC's as being something like the involvement of the gods in the the lives of Odysseus or other greek heroes. There has been at least three cases of divine intervention by the gods directly on behalf of the PC's since the game started - one god cast Sanctuary on a PC two save him from some conjured fiends, another granted a non-cleric a spell in exchange for a blood sacrifice (the PC's own blood), and a third sent an angel to rescue a cleric that had fallen on the field of battle.

Do your good temples all get along is the only strife if there is any between good and evil churches?

It depends. There can be pretty intense rivalry between any dieties with overlapping portfolios. Because of the way alignment works in my game, it's rare for two dieties to have the same portfolio and not be of radically different alignment and often, if they are similar in outlook and portfolio its because they are siblings. But for example, a good sun goddess and a good rain goddess can be at odds with each other. However, keep in mind that the people are exclusively polytheist. Farmers are likely to worship or at least propitiate the gods of light, night, rains and storms regardless of the alignment of the farmer or the diety. A farmer that only worshiped gods of goodness would be seen as a bit odd by most of the community, and perhaps inflicted with hubris if he refused to make a blood offering to the god of floods just because (or maybe especially because) the god was violent and bloodthirsty. Who is he to judge the gods? Most people see worship as a practical matter, rather than as an act of love or devotion.

Do you require your clerics to tithe to their churches?

If the church does. You'll note that most temples operate quite openly as businesses that provide services. Again, no one really expects anyone to 'tithe' as an act of love and devotion. The idea that you would love the gods and they would love you is pretty foreign to the setting. The idea is that the gods are deserving of worship simply by being greater beings, and besides as a practical matter there is a valuable economic transaction going on. The gods need something from you, and in return for service you'll recieve their blessing.

Do the cleric gods every get angry with the cleric and block access to his spells?

If the cleric does something that significantly departs from the gods teaching or casts the god in a bad light, then yes. Most gods take a pretty broad view on what advances their cause though. This can lead to divisions among their followers. For example, one PC (now dead) belonged to a secret order of assassins operating within one of the major 'good' faiths. They considered it their divinely ordained mission to kill necromancers whereever they were found. Officially, their order had been banned centuries ago. Unofficially, different leaders of the church had continued to quietly support it. If this got out, it probably would have led to a violent schism within the church, as many members of the faith would have assumed that the church had been invaded by an alien philosophy that needed expelled. OOC, I would use this as an example of why you can't always expect a Commune spell to work - sometimes dieties have very good reasons for just not answering questions or even lying to their own clerics. Regardless of how the diety would weigh in on this question, she would have a falling away of followers disenchanted in their faith and yet, each faction in her faith believed that they were doing good and serving her.

Gods can't interfere to openly because they don't want to attract the attention of other gods who might want to stop them from doing what they are doing so they tend to be sneaky and use their followers or others to accomplish their goals.

In my campaign, the gods had a war (very 'originally' called the Godswar) which killed a lot of them and nearly destroyed the world (this is bad, because the world was made by a departed creator diety that has left the multiverse, so if the remaining gods break it, they cant' fix it). As a result, they signed a treaty called 'the Compact', that limits how they interact with the world. The exact rules aren't known by mortals, but it is known that each time a diety intervenes a rival diety can claim the right to intervene to an equal degree. So if a diety saves the life of a follower, a rival diety can now intervene to kill one of the first dieties followers. As a result, dieties have to be careful how they intervene because the Compact forces balance on the universe. The gods don't necessarily like this balance, but they can resolve the issue in their favor only by risking another gods war, so the gods are continually using mortals to maneuver against each other in a high stakes 'game' presumably with the end of aggragating enough power to themselves to win the Godswar rematch outright.

They are not omniscient and they can't see the future clearly there are many futures that can happen.

They are very not omniscient in my world. Often they can't even see the present clearly. But they can definately blow things up good if they ever want to.

Gods get power from their worshipers so there is always some rivalry between them even the good gods.

Whether or not gods get power from their worshipers is an intence point of religious debate in my world. Some say 'Yes', others 'No'. One of the heresies even says that the Gods get existence from worship, and only exist because people worship them. The truth is not known to mortals, and the gods aren't talking and if they do, no one is sure if you could trust them to tell you the truth anyway. (If a trickster god says the heretics are right, do you believe him or not?)

As for the churches sometimes they work together sometimes they don't.

Every town's churches have a unified front on one issue - keep out any rival faiths. It's the one thing that they can be gauranteed to work together on. The heads of temples generally form a 'white council' (or 'black council' as the case may be) which meets secretly to discuss what should be done in the town or city. Even though most towns have a nominal secular leader, if the 'white council' ever advices the leader to do something you can be pretty sure it will happen. However, this is balanced by the fact that if the churches are ever working against the will of the people too openly, there is a good chance the people will demand new priests or religions more suited to what they desire. And there are alway rivals ready to step into this gap. So a more hands off and behind the scenes approach is typical.

 

[SkidAce]

snipped good stuff

Your thesis here codifies a lot of how my world has worked. But says it more coherently than I ever have. So I'm plagiarizing the heck out of it for my campaign book of religion.

Thanks.

 

[steeldragons]

I am curious on how different DMs handle and use the gods in their games.

Love this stuff! Great thread.

Can you kill them?

Never had a player try, but I'm inclined to say no. A party of sufficient level might be able to "take one on", but I can not really wrap my head around non-immortal beings being able to defeat an immortal one.

do they play a major part in your world?

They are, officially, by decree of the king of the gods, NOT supposed to interfere in the mortal realms except to empower and deal with their mortal representatives (their clerics and churches). This was in reaction to the devastation wrought by their predecessors, who were DIRECTLY involved in the physical world, whom the current pantheon had to overthrow to save the world from annihilation.

Naturally, the evil-aligned (and a few chaotic) deities are not 100% in line with this.

Do you just hand wave them away except for letting the cleric have access to divine magic?

Oh NO! No no no. I don't mean to make it sound like that. There are "visions" (usually in dreams) and visits from divine or immortal servants (archons/angels/celestials of various powers, also mostly in a dream state). They are definitely "watching" over empowered champions (like clerics over, say, 5th level, and paladins of all levels) and keeping tabs on the world as a whole (though they are restricted from direct involvement thereof). Loss of one's magical powers are a real possibility.

Do your good temples all get along is the only strife if there is any between good and evil churches?

Mostly, yes. This has been solidified mostly by the 3 major gods of Lawful Good and their mythological association as "the Triad of Light" hold the strongest connections and largest, wealthiest and most politically influential continent wide.

That is not to say that the gods' MORTAL (particularly HUMAN) worshippers and representatives, in their own limited and imperfect existence always get along. In particular the followers/clerics of the relatively "individual" churches and shrines of the Chaotic Good goddess of nature/weather/the harvest (who has clerics, mind you. Druids are something else in Orea) and those of the vast hierarchical structured temples of the (LG) king of the gods, who among other things is attributed the rule of Order and Civilization are often at odds where the "civilized" and "rural" communities/peoples come together.

For the most part, however, particularly in more rural, less wealthy communities, there are NOT individual temples. If there is one patron deity or small temple or monastery there is still a "Godshall" [Gods-Hall], oftentimes the only stone structure to be found in such communities. And this is most commonly tended by low-to-mid level priests of neutral deities, open for use and worship of any/all deities for the community. These are almost exclusively the good or neutral entities, but a rash of disease could prompt attention to the Neutral Evil "Plague Mistress" goddess of disease and undeath or a harsh/long season leads to supplications to the lesser goddess of Winter, etc...

Clerics have their own single god. Most PCs will prefer one or the other (who represents stuff they like/relate to: mages are "devoted" to the goddess of magic, warriors like the god of heroes, etc...). Kingdoms, cities or nations might have a range of "accepted" religions or a patron deity. But most normal city, town and country folk will offer sacrifice, prayer and donations to whatever deities they think can help them.

All of that said, public worship of evil deities (and temples to same) is extremely rare and sanctioned in very few places within Orea.

Do you require your clerics to tithe to their churches?

As DM, I do not. Though most good role-players make regular donations, even to temples of deities they might not worship but are seeking favor from, or the services of such temples as they require. A cleric of Astar (LG) is not going to get in [divine] trouble giving coins to the temple of Desri (N), goddess of death, for reviving their allies or to the Daughters of Gilea, all female order of the goddess of healing, (also LG) for providing healing beyond the Astaran cleric's abilities. Now, if an Astaran cleric entered into a bargain with servants/clerics of Karos the Chaosbringer (CE) or Astar's divine nemisis, Do'am the god of dominion (LE) there's likely to be problems.

Do the cleric gods ever get angry with the cleric and block access to his spells?

Again, it's never happened in play...but I could see it happen...and would not be averse to enforcing that if it ever came up.

Gods can't be out righted killed in my games by PCs they can be badly diminished and banished for hundreds even thousands of years but they can come back.

Again, never happened in my games, but I could see something similar unfolding. But, again, the idea would seem to require a party of VERY high (20+) level.

They also can't easily walk around the material plains to do so makes them vulnerable so many chose to speak through someone else or use dreams to communicate with followers.

Use dreams? Yes. "Easily walk around", yes they could...but they're not supposed to. And the most evil have been blocked from doing so at all! But even if one were to walk around, they'd still be a god and as such, not vulnerable to material attack. But, again, they're not allowed to by decree of their king, Astar.

They are not omniscient and they can't see the future clearly there are many futures that can happen.

I'm on board with many futures can happen...that's true even for the few deities that can see the future...limited to the goddess of magic, goddess of death who also holds influence of Fate and judgement of souls...the elder goddess Desri knows what everyone is doing all of the time and what/when/how they are supposed to die and what is supposed to happen to them afterwards. Then there's Sorilorr, true neutral god of knowledge, history and inspiration...one of the only other remaining "Elder gods", who is the only god who IS omniscient, literally. He is called "the All-Knowing."

In that vein, most deities of Orea, compared to PCs, would be considered "omnipotent" and though easily teleporting or planeshifting wherever with the speed of thought, there are none who are "omnipresent", thus the need for clerics, avatars, angels/immortal servants, etc...

Gods get power from their worshipers so there is always some rivalry between them even the good gods.

I suppose. Yeah. But it's more an all good gods share their energies, all neutral gods hold their own and exist out of necessity to their spheres than worship (mortal worshippers or not: knowledge exists, death exists, magic exists, etc...), and all evil gods are too powerful and/or feed as much off of mortal fear and destruction as worship.

Take raise dead the cleric preforming it on a non follower will usually be tasked by his god to do something or sometimes the god may put a geas on the non believer to fulfill a task or give them X amount of time to fulfill a quest or the god will take back their life.

Hmm. Well, I only have...3?...maybe 4 deities that are allowed to Raise Dead. While not as structured as a geas, there is definitely a "shadow" or an "urge" left on the raised...possibly the raisee as well.

I tweak this stuff depending on the story I want to help tell. For example in my current campaign the gods have been kept away from the world for over a thousand years. The churches are there and have priests but no true clerics the only divine magic is the magic of nature and the druids. Divine magic is just starting to slowly seep back in. This has allowed me to play around with having evil and greedy people as the head of some of the temples.

Long, long ago, I made the distinction between "divine" magic (the essence of the gods LENT to their worthy mortal vessels) and "natural" magic (the "radiation", as it were, of the physical -not divine- world). So druids in Orea are their own thing, not worshipping the "goddess [of nature] of Men" but Nature, itself. That said, I've also adjusted the spell lists that druids are the only class with access to reincarnation.

Ferghis: 7. What happens to a soul after they die? If they end up going to different places, how are the destinations chosen?

I ask this because the lower planes seem to have a large number of souls to "deal" with, while I think most people, in most settings, would worship deities residing in the upper planes. More specifically, aside from some noteworthy exceptions (Orcus, Asmodeus, Bane) most of the rulers of the lower planes (demons, devils, and others) are usually regarded as lesser deities, if that. How do they get such a large "share" of souls?

Since fate would have it that I've only recently typed this all out in detail and rully have desire to write it all out again, I will direct you here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/entry.php?233744-Orea-s-Cosmology-I

 

[howandwhy99]

I am curious on how different DMs handle and use the gods in their games. Can you kill them, do they play a major part in your world? Do you just hand wave them away except for letting the cleric have access to divine magic?

Gods can't be killed, but they can be forgotten. As Clerics are one of the 3 core classes in the game Deities do have a major role in the game. However, religion/culture plays much larger portion in the game content game available to be engaged with. Direct contact with deities is largely uncommon even at the very highest levels of play and then it is merely an avatar and almost never on the Prime Material plane. Just like PCs cannot travel to the Outer Realms the usual Deities cannot travel to theirs (this excludes Druids of course).

Do your good temples all get along is the only strife if there is any between good and evil churches? Do you require your clerics to tithe to their churches? Do the cleric gods every get angry with the cleric and block access to his spells?

Yes, there are within-religion conflicts, but it depends upon the church. The PCs changing alignment and/or religions / religious interpretations cause this quite often themselves, even moreso for Clerics. Clerics aren't required to tithe because they are the keepers of the religion's funds. Their vocation is literally working for their religion every day, so they don't make money, perform services, or craft anything which isn't that faith's works. Now if the structure of the church as such has NPCs who can call on PCs to give their funds to other elements, which is standard for any interactive religious body with groups beyond a single entity, well they can ask for funds. But that isn't tithing.

The Player of a PC Cleric, or any PC really, creates their own deity/deities/religion as they so desire. I don't want to force them into anyone else's, but I have some available if the campaign already has them constructed. Due to their own design and then actions in accordance with this deity they can have their divine spells blocked. But then they can switch to another deity if they want anyways. It's not a dead end street unless they opt for an NPC-only deity. Of course, that could still be done, but it's sorta like voluntary retirement of the character (NPC status) and much harder to get them out of it later.