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D&D 5E L&L: Subclasses

Whether we think of these elements as game mechanics with attached story or story elements with attached mechanics, I think the main thing is that, at a basic level, we often don't have a design pattern/philosophy which would help elevate the combination of the disparate parts to an emergent and coherent whole. At some level I don't even care what that pattern is if it is discernible, and we recognize the tradeoffs different patterns make. The question is then which set of tradeoffs best suits the intended use?

5e looks like it will have the following basic elements: ability scores, race, background, class, subclass, feats (optional), and skills (optional). What are the ways we can elevate that structure such that it contributes something to the game a pure character-point system (for example) might not be able to easily achieve?

Consider, for example, the the one-way vs. many-ways approach to building a character toward some archetype. I don't think either is necessarily better, but I do think we should consider their implications. If we use a many-ways approach but lack a way to express whether a given element is more appropriate as a feat or a class feature (using whatever criterion) we weaken the entire structure (because what is the point of having two structures if they are indistinguishable?) even though there is greater possible richness in principle. A one-way approach can have more inherent clarity, but loses potential richness. So, a many-ways approach should probably enforce some stronger guidelines on what game elements "mean" compared to a one-way approach so it doesn't collapse under its own weight.

This is where feats, in particular, are such a tricky bit. In the L&L from a few weeks ago Mearls mentioned that the catch-all nature of feats was a feature, not a bug. If we embrace that I think it really behooves the designers to tighten up the "meaning" (whether in terms of mechanics, story, or both) of the other elements so we avoid having multiple catch-alls. On the other hand, if feats are given a narrower purpose the meaning of class can probably be loosened somewhat. The fact that feats are meant to be optional just makes it trickier.

Assuming my thoughts above are not a load of crap, I think I might try for a breakdown somewhat as follows.
1. Ability scores primarily represent unchanging natural talent plus non-specific competency. If skills are not used this is sufficient since broad-based competency is all that is represented in play, while if skills are used this is still sufficient because the skills represent specific competency. The fundamental mechanics of ability scores are fixed and universal, although other game elements may leverage them in unique ways.
2. Race represents inherent in-born ability and ubiquitous cultural influence. (I'd personally like to separate in-born ability and ubiquitous cultural influence, but that's another discussion.) Because the scope and story of race is quite clear, and because one can only have a single race, the mechanical specifics are fairly unconstrained except for balance purposes.
3. Background represents vocation, non-ubiquitous cultural influence, and/or social station. A character will in general have only a single background, but the scope, story, and campaign dependence is highly variable. They speak more to what one does than how one does it. All backgrounds give some basic mechanical proficiencies and a special benefit, but they carefully avoid entanglement, overlap, and/or dependence with the mechanical abilities of other elements like race or class. They can, however, complement these other elements.
4. Classes represent the fundamental way one interacts with the broadest levels of reality (the gods, the nature of the mind, physics, the planes but not a plane) and introduce a small number of fundamental mechanics which form the basis for these interactions from start to end. Classes that mix these broad elements (e.g. the paladin) need a wholly unique mechanic or a unique interaction of existing mechanics. Class doesn't tell the story of a character, it shows the type of story for that character. Although the focus is on mechanics and broad story elements, it bears remembering that exactly what counts as a distinct "level of reality" depends very much on the kinds of stories told in that world and the cosmology in which they occur. D&D makes a strong distinction between arcane and divine magic, for example, but in another game it might not be so.
5. Subclasses represent the most distinguishing nuances in how a class interacts with reality. They reflect specific deities, iconic magical traditions/communities, schools of thought, fighting styles, single planes, civilizations, countercultures, and more. They don't simply add to or modify the fundamental mechanics of a class, they suffuse it. Mechanics independent of the core class mechanics (and especially those without similarly long-term scope) are strongly discouraged.
6. Feats are optional and largely self-contained story packages with limited mechanical scope (in terms of interaction with other elements, not necessarily power). They change how one plays the game, but they do not usually change how one plays a class. Feat chains are discouraged: if the feats do not share mechanics they should tell different (if complementary) stories, and if they do share mechanics a new class or subclass may be the proper place for the idea. Feats that rely on or modify a class' fundamental mechanics are the would-be class or subclass features which do not sufficiently suffuse that mechanic. Feats are an appropriate way to meaningfully expand race, background, and skills.
7. Skills are an optional element that fine-grain the scope (both mechanically and story-wise) of ability checks, and like ability checks work the same from player to player when in use. Other elements may leverage skills in the same way they leverage ability checks.

For something like the assassin I think the above gives sufficient guidelines about when or if something is appropriate. Suppose we envision the death attack as a special observation-based sneak attack, such that the assassin should be a rogue subclass. An assassin background might emphasize social connections with appropriate elements (whether criminal, national, or religious). A feat might introduce very flexible poison use, which is useful to rogue(assassins) and others as well without overlapping core identity. A different feat might allow selecting multiple backgrounds for the purpose of creating cover identities, useful to many characters that want to practice subterfuge. For abilities that utilize the subclass' death attack we have guidance as to whether it is better as a subclass feature (usually) or a feat (less often). For example, an ability like "Always Watching" might grant the assassin significant flexibility on what counts as observation for the purposes of the death attack, and since this would likely come into play all the time it would be an appropriate subclass feature. An ability like "Shadowing" might grant the assassin the ability to designate and stalk a specific target over a longer period of time (i.e. days) for some benefit when maneuvering into the critical position or actually executing the hit, but because not all assassins are assumed to be stalking a single creature over the long term this might work well as a feat. Such a feat could be powerful, even opening up new ways to play, while remaining secondary to the assassin subclass' core identity. Finally, a later class might define a whole range of assassiny types starting from a broad story and mechanic separate from the observe-you-to-death rogue(assassin). Existing backgrounds and feats independent of rogue(assassin) mechanics would still be perfectly useful, but the rest could stay in their own story and mechanical space. Hopefully something like this would encourage the richness possible in the game without leading to the feat or class feature free-for-all of past editions.
 

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Are they? I never heard of archer wizards in any fiction (except maybe Earthdawn) and to me a wizard is not an archer.

It doesn't matter whether there are famous wizard characters in fiction using bows or not.

What matters is that the concepts of someone knowing magic + using a bow is immediately understandable to anybody.
 

Identify what's important about the concept and grab the rules element that hit it.

If there's no pirate subclass, grab the sailor background and the pistol-and-sword specialty, the rogue class with the bandit subclass that focuses on intimidation and dirty fighting, and what more do you want?

What I want is to do exactly what you say here... without needing to "refluff" the sub-class when there's no need to put fluff on the sub-class in the first place.

Fighters fight using weapons and fighting styles. And those are the types of things that I think should be called out as the sub-classes in my opinion. Because that way, I can choose how my Fighter fights, gain the bonuses from it that the sub-class will grant me... and not have to strip away any unwanted fluff like being a Samurai or a Gladiator. I'm quite capable of adding samurai or gladiator fluff to my Fighter after the fact without the game doing it for me.
 

With all this talk of design space between subclasses and themes, is anyone else getting nostalgic over Star Wars SAGA? They had a nice, efficient way of blending feats- sorry, 'talents', class abilities and subclasses that really gelled for me. Just enough structure to make it not overwhelming, with enough freedom to make your scoundrel1 into any one of a dozen ideas.

If anyone ever designs a system like that with the simplicity of Next, I would be sold.

It was an elegant system, for a more civilized age.
 

Fighters fight using weapons and fighting styles. And those are the types of things that I think should be called out as the sub-classes in my opinion.

Well, "Fighter who uses light armor, rides a horse, uses a bow, and exotic weapons" is much more annoying to write on your character than "Samurai."

Because that way, I can choose how my Fighter fights, gain the bonuses from it that the sub-class will grant me... and not have to strip away any unwanted fluff like being a Samurai or a Gladiator. I'm quite capable of adding samurai or gladiator fluff to my Fighter after the fact without the game doing it for me.

Stripping away fluff is easier than adding it. Snap your fingers and it's gone. And this game isn't just for you and I, experienced gamers that find adding fluff to be an easier task. That built-in fluff is there to act as a springboard for newer players. I got alot of inspiration from built-in fluff when I first started playing. Now I've come to realize that none of the assigned names and fluff are required to be what they are. If my concept is best suited by the rage ability of the Barbarian I know to easily discard that class' fluff and go with my concept. You say it yourself that you are quite capable of adding fluff, just make that added fluff replace what's already there.
 


Get the fluff out of sub-classes please. If it is worthwhile to be fluff make a background. I want a samurai that is a rogue (scorpion clan). I want a want a wizard (Illusionist) who is a charlatan. I certainly do not want a gladiator/charlatan that does not evoke D&D to me. These should be backgrounds. If 5e is going down the road of a whole bunch of classes and filling up a grid of roles, then I can see mixing fluff with class to evoke a particular class. they tried that though. Some people liked it and others did not.

This is the number one reason why background should be stripped from classes. Campaign setting. I would like to see classes that are able to be plugged into any setting and if the sub-classes evoke too much background then basically that class will not have a role in a creatively inspired setting. Fighter(Samurai) does not work in a steam punk setting. I can imagine a setting book coming out that throws out all the standard backgrounds and creates new ones for that setting. If it was Oriental Adventures then you would see a samurai background instead of Noble, you would see a yakuza instead of thug, you would see a wu-gen background shugenja etc. This is how I would like to see it. I think the designers are in the ballpark but it needs to be retooled a bit to get there.
 

I have to say that these all now feel quite inappropriate to me.

We have to understand that there are "gamist" players who like these, but to "casual" players there could be horribly nondescript: <"Striker" must obviously be a Fighter, right?> <No, it's a Rogue of course> <Why do I have to be a Cleric to be a Leader?> <Because "Leaders" are Clerics or Wizards by the rules> <I am a Wizard and I am an Expert at...> <No, stop there, you have to be a Rogue to be an "Expert"> and so on, these keywords could mean anything and are almost arbitrary. Pretty much all of them.

OTOH, a "Gladiator" clearly is a type of Fighter, while a "Necromancer" is a type of Wizard. There can be some overlap, such as Necromancer being also a Cleric (debatable, but possible of course), but at least these names tell you who you are as a whole, while all the above rather tell you about your tactics.

I totally understand. I would point out that gamers have been successfully dealing with this kind of ambiguity for a long time. I don't think it was a big deal for people in 3rd to understand that the Wizard is an expert at arcane matters while not being an "Expert" class member, and I don't think it would present much trouble for future gamers. Nor am I particularly wedded to these names that I came up with off the top of my head.

Your last paragraph strikes upon the heart of the matter. If "Necromancer" is a wizard subclass, then it tells me "who I am" as well as "what my tactics are". Which, I think, rather limits Necromancers for in-world concepts, and forces a lot of "re-flavoring" on a lot of groups. I don't think there's any particular problem with letting mechanic A tell me "who I am" and mechanic B tell me "about my tactics". The Basic game, for those easily confused newbies, doesn't need to consider any of these as choices.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of all these predefined fiddly bits anyway, in part because this very problem is unavoidable when you create lists of pre-defined fiddly bits. I'm okay with a system that had open-ended descriptors adjudicated at-table. Then we skip the whole business. Unfortunately, I figure we are doomed to lists of fiddly bits because:

  • WotC/D&D needs to sell splat, which is hard(er) to do with an freeform system.
  • Organized (and possibly Computerized) play requires a more pre-defined uniform system.
  • Its harder to consistently convey a world to inexperienced players (which ties into the other two.)

It's hard to think of a Necromancer Fighter or a Gladiator Wizard. They are definitely not impossible, but clearly they are advanced concepts compared to a Gladiator Fighter and Necromancer Wizard. OTOH an archer Fighter and an archer Wizard are both totally understandable to everybody, they are not advanced concepts at all, they are just characters who wield a bow.

:confused:I'm not sure what you're trying to say here vis-a-vis the naming of subclasses.

However, IMO, an optimal D&D system would handle a Necromancer Fighter and a Gladiator Wizard by putting the "Necromancer" and "Gladiator" parts in the Background. The player can then choose how much to weight the "Necromancer" vs "Fighter" parts through multiclassing. If all they want is come dark boney flavor, leave it at Necromancer background and get some bonuses on ability checks about Undead. If they want some actual wizardly ability, take a level or two of Wizard and the associated magical tricks. This works especially well with the "apprentice" levels as discussed.
 

Well, "Fighter who uses light armor, rides a horse, uses a bow, and exotic weapons" is much more annoying to write on your character than "Samurai."

Totally irrelevant, you're going to be writing all that stuff down in the "abilities" section, anyway. (Given the way D&D works, anyway.)

Stripping away fluff is easier than adding it. Snap your fingers and it's gone.

I absolutely and whole-heartedly disagree. Its one of the problems I have with Bo9S and even 4e to some extent. Having a word, especially a word with a lot of real-word baggage, that I have to constantly mentally "correct" while I'm reading, playing, or preparing, is much more work than having more neutral words that I can use to compose a character.
 

To me the crunch is in your hands. It's whether your holding a sword or a wand that matters. The sword does 1d8 slashing and the wand makes you save versus rod, staff or wand. I think we are missing the point with all this subclass dressing. It's the tool that defines your character more than anything else. If it were up to me you'd even be allowed to exchange capabilities as easy as grabbing another tool.
 

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