Antimagic Confusion

[Greenfield]

I dont know why there is confusion on this point it is VERY clear according to the "aiming a spell" section in the PHB that a fireballs point of origin is not the casters fingers ( a point of origin is ALWAYS a grid intersection)...

Lovely concept.

From the SRD:

Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
Material Component: A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.

So yes, it comes from the caster's finger.

As for a grid intersection: Ray, Cone and Line type spells originate from the caster as well, but you plot them from the grid intersection at the corner of the caster's square. So how do we resolve the apparent paradox? I suppose we could just say that, at the end of the somatic gestures, the finger ends up at the corner of the caster's square.

Alternately, you could recall that the "point of origin" for spreads, bursts and emanations is referring to the target area, not how the spell reaches that target area.

But regardless of how you fill in that gap, the spell description makes it clear that the spell effect begins at the caster, in the form of a bead.

Here's a good question for you though: Presume that the caster is using Spectral Hand to cast at range, when he or she enters the Anti Magic zone. Line of effect isn't interrupted by the zone, so the Spectral Hand should remain operations and under the caster's control, right?

Since the Hand exists specifically to give spells a point of origin away from the caster, could a caster continue to cast touch spells through that hand? At this point we're away from the questionable logic of whether the corner of a square at the edge of the AMZ is inside or outside it. We're also away from any argument about the spell originating inside the AMZ. And as long as the hand itself doesn't enter the AMZ, it should remain in effect.

So question 1: Can the caster actually control the Hand?
Question 2: Can the hand discharge a touch spell that's already on it?
Question 3: Can the caster cast another touch range spell to be discharged through the hand?

I'm not familiar with any RAW that covers this, but then I haven't memorized (or even read) all the 3.5 books. Anyone got an answer?

 

[Belzbet]

Point of origin is only relevant to area spells (or spells without a specific target or effect) other spells have targets or effects (and point of origin is not relevant)... read "aiming a spell" in PHB (the point of origin of a cone of cold is right i front of you...)

I think what is going on is that you are taking the literal meaning of a term that D&D uses very technically and specifically (point of origin really sounds like "where the spell originates, or source or the spell") and then saying that the point of origin of a spell is where it originated....

Note: lightning bolt surely originates from the casters fingers but its point of origin is not the casters fingers (this is clear enough)... Same with fireball.. I am saying that you could cast a lighting bolt from within an antimagic field as long as the target (the point of origin) is NOT in the field (but the bolt would fizzle in the field and would suddenlyappear out of the field....

 

[Oryan77]

I think this is one of those situations where people over-analyze something which is really pretty straight forward when you use common sense.

Forget about "interpretations" and mechanical mumbo jumbo for a minute, and picture what this spell is supposed to represent. It is an area where magic simply cannot exist. It is impossible for magic to exist because this area is antimagic. It is as if, there is no such thing as magic and never was. Magic does not exist in the real world, so, imagine that it is a 10-ft area of our real life world. If I tried to cast a spell right now, nothing happens, because, magic does not exist. That's how an antimagic spell works within the area of the antimagic.

Spells don’t function in an antimagic area

If a spell doesn't function, then how can a spell be cast? Magic does not exist in that area, which means, you are not a caster while within that area because magic does not exist and therefore cannot be cast. It doesn't matter where the caster wants to pinpoint the spell effect outside the antimagic field.

but an antimagic area doesn’t block line of effect.

This is referring to when someone outside the area casts a line of effect spell on the other side of the antimagic area (not within the antimagic area). The antimagic field will not block that spell.

If a spell’s point of origin is inside an antimagic area, that spell is entirely suppressed.

This is referring to when someone outside the area casts a spell that is targeting a point within the antimagic area. The antimagic field will block the entire spell even if it is an area spell because magic does not exist at that point and therefore, the area spell does not create any "edges" outside of the antimagic area because the spell never executed from its center point in the first place. This is also related to targeting spells within the antimagic area.

When a spell’s point of origin is located outside an antimagic area, but part of that spell’s area overlaps the antimagic area, that spell’s effect is suppressed where the two areas overlap.

This is referring to when someone outside the area casts an area spell that is targeting a point outside the antimagic area, or when a long lasting area spell (Black Tentacles, etc, etc) was cast before the antimagic field was cast. Since there is a center point of the spell active, the area spell works, but it only works around the area outside of the antimagic area.

Time elapsed within an antimagic area still counts against a spell’s duration.

This is referring to ongoing spells that were already active before entering the antimagic area. The antimagic spell does not dispel spells (but it does keep you from casting spells inside the antimagic area, since magic does not exist in that area and therefore cannot be cast). It only makes the spell not exist while in that area. So cast Shield that lasts 1 minute outside the antimagic area, walk into the antimagic area and hang out for 30 seconds and Shield does not exist, walk back out of the antimagic area and your Shield spell will last another 30 seconds until the 1 minute is up.

If an instantaneous spell is entirely suppressed, that spell is effectively canceled. (It’s suppressed, and its duration instantaneously expires.) An instantaneous area spell is only entirely suppressed and effectively canceled if its point of origin is within the antimagic area.

This should be self-explanatory when all of the above is understood.

An awesome tactic that I learned playing a 17th level Rogue with high UMD skill was carrying around an antimagic field scroll for an emergency. I was hit by a BBEG with a Save-or-Die spell that required a reroll for 6 rounds. Melee warriors that are built right won't need to rely on magic items to kill someone. So I cast antimagic field on myself, it surpressed the Save-or-Die spell (did not dispel it, but basically the same thing), and I flanked and used skill tricks to sneak attack the BBEG mage. I kept her from casting spells, she had no buffs against my attacks, and I kept myself from needing to roll saves for 6 rounds. It worked great.

 

[Oryan77]

So yes, it comes from the caster's finger.

When there is any rules talk about "point of origin", it is referring to where the spell is both targeted and executed. A "pointing digit" is not the "point of origin". "Pointing digit" means, "I am pointing my finger." Sure, you can say that it is the "point from where it was fired", but that is absolutely not the "point of origin". The point of origin in the Fireball spell is the grid intersection that you target because that is also where it is executed (explodes & deals damage).

Ray, Cone and Line effects "point of origin" is the intersection around the casters square. You can call it his fingertip if you want to in this case (cause it's the same "point" basically), but you're just going to make things more complicated than it actually is if you misinterpret the meaning of "point of origin" the way you are doing.

 

[Greenfield]

There is RAW (Rules as Written) and RAI (Rules as Intended).

As written, you can cast spells while standing in an anti-magic zone, so long as the manifestation begins someplace outside of that area.

As intended, you can't cast spells while in an anti magic zone.

Which does your game group play? The question is the answer: Whichever interpretation your game group plays.

 

[Greenfield]

When there is any rules talk about "point of origin", it is referring to where the spell is both targeted and executed. A "pointing digit" is not the "point of origin". "Pointing digit" means, "I am pointing my finger." Sure, you can say that it is the "point from where it was fired", but that is absolutely not the "point of origin". The point of origin in the Fireball spell is the grid intersection that you target because that is also where it is executed (explodes & deals damage).

Ray, Cone and Line effects "point of origin" is the intersection around the casters square. You can call it his fingertip if you want to in this case (cause it's the same "point" basically), but you're just going to make things more complicated than it actually is if you misinterpret the meaning of "point of origin" the way you are doing.

Every spell other than touch type spells begin at a grid intersection, if only because that's how you count the range.

My point was that there is a specific magical manifestation involved in Fireball, and it begins at the caster's finger (which as I said has to be measured from a grid intersection). That manifestation (the tiny red bead) can be blocked, and may have to be aimed, so you can't just hand-wave it away as "color text". It's a necessary part of the spell. If that manifestation can't begin there, the spell fails.

Other ranged or area of effect spells that don't include that type of manifestation, such as Black Tentacles, could theoretically be cast from within the anti magic zone, so long as the manifestation itself begins outside of that zone. That's RAW, though probably not RAI. But neither RAW nor RAI should allow that particular spell to be cast from within anti magic.

 

[Oryan77]

As written, you can cast spells while standing in an anti-magic zone, so long as the manifestation begins someplace outside of that area.

Please show me the written source in the SRD that says that you can cast a spell within an anti-magic zone and have it work outside of the area. I don't see it.

 

[Oryan77]

That manifestation (the tiny red bead) can be blocked, and may have to be aimed, so you can't just hand-wave it away as "color text". It's a necessary part of the spell. If that manifestation can't begin there, the spell fails.

But that has nothing to do with what D&D means when the rules refer to "point of origin". I explained what "point of origin" refers to in the rules, and that's a RAW explanation, not an interpretation. What you are explaining is an interpretation for what the "point of origin" is.

Otherwise, the caster is always the "point of origin" since every spell is cast from a verbal, material, or somatic component and casts off from the casters hand, finger, eyeballs, holy symbol, or whatever. Even a mental command like Psionics would make the caster the "point of origin". So why bother with using the terminology, "point of origin" and just say, "the caster"? I don't know any other way to say it, but your interpretation of "point of origin" is just wrong.

Other ranged or area of effect spells that don't include that type of manifestation, such as Black Tentacles, could theoretically be cast from within the anti magic zone

Black Tentacles has a "point of origin". I still don't believe any spell can be cast from within the antimagic area. And Black Tentacles won't work if the "point of origin" you choose is an intersection within the antimagic field.

 

[Oryan77]

Here, maybe this will help with your interpretation of "point of origin":

3.5 PHB, page 175, Burst, Emanation, or Spread: (paragraph on the right hand side of the page):

"you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point."

also

"You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions."

 

[Greenfield]

Please show me the written source in the SRD that says that you can cast a spell within an anti-magic zone and have it work outside of the area. I don't see it.

Been over this material many times, but I guess once more is called for. (Remember, this argument is RAW, not RAI).

ANTIMAGIC
An antimagic field spell or effect cancels magic altogether. An antimagic effect has the following powers and characteristics.
• No supernatural ability, spell-like ability, or spell works in an area of antimagic (but extraordinary abilities still work).
• Antimagic does not dispel magic; it suppresses it. Once a magical effect is no longer affected by the antimagic (the antimagic fades, the center of the effect moves away, and so on), the magic returns. Spells that still have part of their duration left begin functioning again, magic items are once again useful, and so forth.
• Spell areas that include both an antimagic area and a normal area, but are not centered in the antimagic area, still function in the normal area. If the spell’s center is in the antimagic area, then the spell is suppressed.
• Golems and other constructs, elementals, outsiders, and corporeal undead, still function in an antimagic area (though the antimagic area suppresses their spellcasting and their supernatural and spell-like abilities normally). If such creatures are summoned or conjured, however, see below.
• Summoned or conjured creatures of any type, as well as incorporeal undead, wink out if they enter the area of an antimagic effect. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away.
• Magic items with continuous effects do not function in the area of an antimagic effect, but their effects are not canceled (so the contents of a bag of holding are unavailable, but neither spill out nor disappear forever).
• Two antimagic areas in the same place do not cancel each other out, nor do they stack.
• Wall of force, prismatic wall, and prismatic sphere are not affected by antimagic. Break enchantment, dispel magic, and greater dispel magic spells do not dispel antimagic. Mage’s disjunction has a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. If the antimagic field survives the disjunction, no items within it are disjoined.

That's the general description of Antimagic. Here's the spell...

Antimagic Field
Abjuration
Level: Clr 8, Magic 6, Protection 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 10 ft.
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: See text
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.
Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)
A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field.
Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions).
Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.
Arcane Material Component: A pinch of powdered iron or iron filings.

Okay, so where does it explicitly say I can cast while inside? It doesn't. Neither, however, does it say I can't.

The text I highlighted spells out those limits. It suppresses any magical effect used within an Antimagic Field. It suppresses any magical effect brought into an Antimagic Field. I can't cast *into* an Antimagic Field. No spell can go off within the field, and no area of effect can include any part of an Antimagic Field.

It walks all around the point in question. The spell can't cover that area, can't be cast into that area, won't work in that area. It says nothing about casting within or from that area.

Now I can't cast from a magic item like wand, scroll, staff, ring, or anything similar, so I'm limited to what's on my finger, but it doesn't say I can't cast.

Still, to be fair, if someone tried this at my table I'd say "Dispel BS!" (in that thunderous voice I reserve for DM rulings.) I don't think that this is at all what the authors intended, but it is what they wrote.

And oddly, while the Rules Compendium clarified that AMF doesn't block line of effect (implied but not clear in the PHB, DMG or SRD), they didn't address the subject of casting out of such a field. Kind of makes you wonder why they conspicuously avoided that point, doesn't it?