Solid Fog v Fireball

[Greenfield]

Had an odd one come up in play.

High level group (PCs) encounter lower level group of highwaymen (speed bumps).

The Druid started things going with Hold Battlefield (aka Entangle), then a Wizard cast Solid Fog on the group.

A moment later another caster dropped a Fireball.

My question was, does the Fireball extend into that cloud?

Normally fire spells disperse fog and mist type effects, but Solid Fog specifically states that only a stronmg wind (35 mph or higher) can disperse it.

Fireball projects a lot of heat, but very little physical pressure, and the bead can be detonated prior to reaching its target if it hits anything solid.

So, does the fiery bead detonate early when it hist the "solid" edge of the Solid Fog?
Is the burst obstructed by the Solid Fog spell?

Presuming that the answer to the second question is "no", what effect, if any, does the Solid Fog have on targets' ability to make Saves? (I know it doesn't list any, but if you can't see and you can't move...)

 

[Grogg of the North]

Hmm ... an interesting question.

I personally would say that the caster has to "thread" the bead. So the caster must make a ranged attack roll. I don't know what the AC is but I'd probably say something like 20 or possibly even the DC for a solid fog level spell. Failure means the bead strikes the fog and detonates. Since fireball is a spread, I'd say that yes, it extends into the fog because magic.

I think the reference about only a strong wind being able to disperse it is because fog cloud, the spell it references, only requires a moderate wind. Can the fire burn away fog? Well, Obscuring Mist says that fire burns it away. I didn't see anything like that for Fog Cloud / Solid Fog. However, I'd allow the caster to try. I'd probably ask for a Spellcraft check. The DC would probably be the same as what I mused about for threading a bead through a cloud.

I wouldn't give a penalty on saves while in the solid fog. You're already in a solid fog and you don't need any more reasons to hate life.

 

[Warbringer]

Solid Fog would not stop the fireball I would think. Does make it harder to see the i tended target, but fireball still effects invisible creatures if they are in the burst.

Maybe give +2 for soft cover?

Heat vs water vapor .... Fog isn't dispersed so much as evaporated

 

[Greenfield]

My own take was that the bead detonates if it hits a solid object, and while Solid Fog is soft and cushiony (we compared it to "Summon Jello IV"), it is still effectively solid.

The area of effect (a "burst" according to the book) of the Fireball is usually stopped by walls or other intervening objects unless it can do enough damage to burn through them, and Solid Fog has no particular hardness or hit points per inch to allow such a burn through. It also says that it can only be dispersed by a strong wind, which Fireball doesn't provide.

The expanding flames of Fireball are described as having very little physical force. If it had none at all I might agree that it could penetrate the Solid Fog because of a lack of physical presence. If it had any significant physical force I could say it qualifies as force equal to a strong wind (35 mph).

According to the Wind Effects table, a 35 mile an hour wind is enough to blow tiny creatures away, or to knock down small ones, and to "check" medium sized creatures (people, for example). That's well beyond the force a Fireball exerts.

So I ruled that it had "very little penetration" into the area.

Maybe I was wrong, but that's the way my understanding of the rules saw it.

 

[Empirate]

My take is based on the following rules quotes:

The vapors prevent effective ranged weapon attacks (except for magic rays and the like).

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

I see that Solid Fog doesn't, as a rule, stop magical targeted effects, i.e. rays "and the like". I also see that the (targettable) magical bead created by the Fireball spell detonates prematurely if it hits a "material body or solid barrier". I conclude that Solid Fog won't stop the Fireball bead in the slightest, because 1) it doesn't stop targeted magical effects, and 2) it's not a "solid" barrier despite the spell's name, nor is it a "material body".

Furthermore, Fireball's spell description heavily implies that you don't even need line of sight or line of effect to the point where the fireball explodes.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I read that exactly oppositely:

This spell functions like fog cloud, but in addition to obscuring sight, the solid fog is so thick that any creature attempting to move through it progresses at a speed of 5 feet, regardless of its normal speed, and it takes a -2 penalty on all melee attack and melee damage rolls. The vapors prevent effective ranged weapon attacks (except for magic rays and the like). A creature or object that falls into solid fog is slowed, so that each 10 feet of vapor that it passes through reduces falling damage by 1d6. A creature can’t take a 5-foot step while in solid fog.

However, unlike normal fog, only a severe wind (31+ mph) disperses these vapors, and it does so in 1 round.

Solid fog can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent solid fog dispersed by wind reforms in 10 minutes.

Solid Fog doesn't stop ranged attacks because you can't see the target- it would otherwise grant cover- but rather, it actually acts as a physical barrier to those attacks. Rays, etc., having no mass or physical element to them pass unhindered through the Solid Fog to strike the target like beams of light.

So, much like a bolt or sling bullet turned aside, the Fireball's bead would strike the SF's barrier and detonate.

 

[Empirate]

And where do you take the "mass" thing from? A fireball's bead doesn't have mass either, or at least it's very much comparable to a ray effect IMO: ranged touch attack to strike stuff, magical in origin, no clear definition of its composition other than "it's magical". If rays worked "like beams of light", btw, Solid Fog would stop them, since it actually does stop light from entering (total concealment [NOT cover] and all that).
Fog dissipates light, magicall thickened fog slows movement of physical objects, but neither hinder magical rays OR the bead created by the Fireball spell. IMO, that is.

 

[Grogg of the North]

So I ruled that it had "very little penetration" into the area.

Maybe I was wrong, but that's the way my understanding of the rules saw it.

There is no right or wrong. Only what works for each person's group.

 

[Greenfield]

My take is based on the following rules quotes: ...

I see that Solid Fog doesn't, as a rule, stop magical targeted effects, i.e. rays "and the like". I also see that the (targettable) magical bead created by the Fireball spell detonates prematurely if it hits a "material body or solid barrier". I conclude that Solid Fog won't stop the Fireball bead in the slightest, because 1) it doesn't stop targeted magical effects, and 2) it's not a "solid" barrier despite the spell's name, nor is it a "material body".

Furthermore, Fireball's spell description heavily implies that you don't even need line of sight or line of effect to the point where the fireball explodes.

We are, of course, free to disagree with each other on topics like this. That's kind of why they end up here to be discussed, after all.

I'm curious, though, why you don't think the bead from the Fireball doesn't need a line of effect between caster and target area? As far as I know, the bead flies in a straight line from the caster's hand (i.e. corner of their square, for precise range measurements) to the target. What could break "Line of Effect" that the bead could pass through?

And if you don't mind my asking, why don't you think that Solid Fog is "solid"? It will slow or stop a falling person, and impedes melee attacks (-2 to hit, -2 damage).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And where do you take the "mass" thing from? A fireball's bead doesn't have mass either, or at least it's very much comparable to a ray effect IMO: ranged touch attack to strike stuff, magical in origin, no clear definition of its composition other than "it's magical". If rays worked "like beams of light", btw, Solid Fog would stop them, since it actually does stop light from entering (total concealment [NOT cover] and all that).
Fog dissipates light, magicall thickened fog slows movement of physical objects, but neither hinder magical rays OR the bead created by the Fireball spell. IMO, that is.

"Mass" would be a term of convenience, implying that the bead acts like a physical object.

And it does act as a physical object- a very fragile one like a glass bead or a vial of alchemist's fire: by the spell's own description, it detonates in contact with even the slightest contact with the walls of an arrow slit or narrow passage.

(You're right about the light thing, though- my bad.)

The spell's name, "Solid" Fog implies how it works- it is a physical barrier. It slows ANY creature to a movement of 5/round, regardless of its initial speed. That's akin to a terminal velocity fall into a body of water. Hit the surface, and the surface hits back, hard.

(Had I designed the spell, I probably would have added that it did damage based on your movement over a certain amount on entering the fog- the faster the velocity, the more the damage.)