D&D 5E L&L 1/7/2013 The Many Worlds of D&D

[Alzrius]

My guess is, having joined them in 4E, they're going to split up Abeir and Toril again for 5E. It's the New Edition Apocalypse. By this point it's become a tradition--the only new edition that didn't smash up the Realms was 3E.

They talked about the Sundering at Gen Con 2012, and it really doesn't seem to fit the name. Basically, it's Ao declaring that the "Era of Upheaval" (everything from the Time of Troubles through the present day) is coming to an end - there will be no more shake-ups in the pantheon, no more world-changing events, etc. From now on, things will be stable again. To mark this, he's recreating the Tablets of Fate, which were destroyed at the end of the Time of Troubles. Several adventures and novels will cover the lead-in to this, as the gods attempt to figure out what the new status quo will be.

That said, none of this seems to involve an actual "sundering" that they said. So there's probably more to come.

 

[Quickleaf]

I would rather Ravenloft be a region in the Shadowfell than vice-versa. Ravenloft is its own unique world, much like Greyhawk or FR. And it's a big prison. Not one where anyone other than occasional PCs should be jaunting in and out. This does not strike me as the description of a border-plane like the Ethereal.

Somebody's trying to put their IP stamp on as much as possible, I think.

Yeah, I definitely see this too. Hiring a video game concept art company to handle their FR concept art, all the art tests and John Schindehette's blog, the references to D&D worlds in the Playtest, the media push for the Sundering... I think it all suggests a stronger focus on clarifying/refining/creating the D&D brand. Will be interesting to see how they balance that with a greater focus on customizability / modular-design.

I wonder about traveling from the Prime to the Outer Planes in this model. If you don't have magic or a portal do you need to traverse the Elemental Planes to get there? Or is it not intended to act as a literal map?

 

[I'm A Banana]

See, now this I don't really agree with. Most worlds get along fine without much of a cosmology.It's not really relevant to many campaigns and probably doesn't see play all that much. Beyond maybe, "Well, demons are invading from somewhere". I've never really understood why cosmologies matter very much

Yeah, I basically agree. Though thinking about cosmology can also add a lot to the world.

But, then again, this is precisely the argument I made about Planescape. Planescape did exactly what you're complaining about KM - all D&D worlds are going to follow a single reality. And deviating from that brings huge negative reaction.

I don't think the big selling point of PS was that it connected the settings. I basically agree with what Mearls pointed out in the article: connecting other campaign settings waters down what makes a particular setting unique and special.

That doesn't mean we need to redefine a yugoloth or whatever, but it does mean that One True Cosmology is kind of a narmed idea. It as in 2e, it was in 4e, it shall be in 5e, if they go that route.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I think the cosmology should be setting dependent. Look at Eberron, for example. That setting has a unique cosmology that's very important to it. I would hate for them to ruin it and other settings by forcing them all into the same mold.

 

[King in Yellow]

To mark this, he's recreating the Tablets of Fate, which were destroyed at the end of the Time of Troubles. Several adventures and novels will cover the lead-in to this, as the gods attempt to figure out what the new status quo will be.

That makes no sense whatsoever at the end of the avatar trilogy it was revealed the tablets of fate were fraudulent. It makes me wonder if the designers for d&d next have actually read the source material they're basing from. In fact by co-incidence I happened to be reading a summary of the series just the other day, the commentator's opinion mirror my own somewhat and can be found by searching for: screamsheet the-worst-adventure-ever-waterdeep-chapter-six/ because I can't post links.

 

[GX.Sigma]

That's relevant for specific settings, but not for the game as a whole. Eberron, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Planescape, and 4E-Land all have quite different cosmologies; the orrery for Eberron, the Gray and the Black for Dark Sun, the World Tree for FR, the Great Wheel for Planescape, the World Axis for 4E. And it works just fine that way. What jacks up the content is repeated efforts by Wizards (and TSR before them) to consolidate all these disparate cosmologies into a single grand scheme.

FR's "world tree" is from 3rd Edition. The original Realms used the AD&D cosmology which Greenwood himself helped detail. Dark Sun was also created to exist within the AD&D cosmology (hence the need for the Gray to separate it from the inner and outer planes). They were part of the "grand scheme" right from the beginning.

 

[Dausuul]

FR's "world tree" is from 3rd Edition. The original Realms used the AD&D cosmology which Greenwood himself helped detail. Dark Sun was also created to exist within the AD&D cosmology (hence the need for the Gray to separate it from the inner and outer planes). They were part of the "grand scheme" right from the beginning.

I'll give you FR, but not Dark Sun. While it's true that Dark Sun was technically part of the grand scheme, its creators went to great lengths to establish that contact between Athas and the rest of the multiverse was all but impossible. Its crystal shell was impenetrable; the Gray stood between it and all other planes; et cetera. This was necessary to ensure that middling-high-level PCs couldn't just open a gate to the Forgotten Realms and start importing wagon trains of food, water, and metal, but it had the effect of sealing Athas within its own peculiar cosmology.

(While I generally support the separation of cosmologies, I have to admit that I kinda hope the Sundering refers to the Gray being torn apart and the sorceror-kings invading Abeir-Toril with their armies of hard-bitten, psionically endowed warriors...)

 

[Alzrius]

That makes no sense whatsoever at the end of the avatar trilogy it was revealed the tablets of fate were fraudulent.

First, welcome to EN World!

Second, I haven't seen the adventures, but the novels ended with Ao destroying the Tablets, not because they were fraudulent, but because they outlined each god's position and duties - with Bane and Myrkul stealing the Tablets, it was the last straw in the gods shirking their responsibilities in favor of self-aggrandizement. Hence, Ao destroyed the Tablets largely in disgust for how the gods had been acting.

Given that, he's now recreating them to lay down the law for how things will be from now on.

I'll give you FR, but not Dark Sun. While it's true that Dark Sun was technically part of the grand scheme, its creators went to great lengths to establish that contact between Athas and the rest of the multiverse was absolutely, totally, and in all other ways inconceivable.

You use that word, but I don't think you know what it means.

Defilers & Preservers stipulated that someone trying to reach the planes through the Grey had a 33% chance of reaching the Inner Planes, or a 5% chance of reaching the Outer Planes (or vice versa, for someone coming from the planes to Athas) - low chances, to be sure, but not inconceivable.

Likewise, the Planar Gate that Dregoth used (found in City by the Silt Sea and then again in Psionic Artifacts of Athas) allowed for faultless planar travel to and from Athas. And that's not even getting into the Black Spine adventure, which was about a githyanki invasion of Athas (which is somewhat reminiscent of the "Incursion" mini-campaign that would appear in Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron in 2003).

I won't even get into the various small instances of Dark Sun material that was to be found in the products for other campaign settings (e.g. an Athasian life-shaped artifact in Tcian Sumere - the fortress of Tenebrous (that is, Orcus) on the Negative Energy Plane in Dead Gods).

 

[gyor]

I actually like that the setting connect each other that being said the default setting is being designed this way so that it is made up of moduals. Want a Nentir Vale Cosmology, just dump the fire plane and border plane, and the others leaving the Elemental Chaos, want a great wheel purely, dump the border planes and the elemental chaos.

They're creating an uber cosmology, but thier designing it in a very modular way, so its easy to remove the parts you don't like, but doing it this way means that the races, monsters and so on are designed as compatible with all these elements in a way that makes sense.

Mike Mearls emphasised flexiblity.

And Mike Mearls did not say connecting settings watered them down and in fact he connected both Planescape and Ravenloft to all the others via his cosmology designed.

No what he was saying was that reducing the Spelljammer setting to just means for moving between settings in magic spaceships deemphasised Spelljammers own elements, and space crafts even magical ones don't fight the feel of every setting.

Personally I like the connections and many of these connections are cannon, especially for FR which has in novels been connected with Dragonlance, Planescape, Spelljammer, Ravenloft, Nentir Vale, and via the Vale Darksun.

I really like the cosmology and wish to here more about it and how it applies to the different settings.

As to the Tablets of Fate they weren't fakes just because they were destroyed, it never says they're fakes, that was just your assumptions. It never actually says what they do or how they work or what happens if they're destroyed. Until now.

The tablets of fate are just the McGriffin to end all McGriffins.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I'll give you FR, but not Dark Sun. While it's true that Dark Sun was technically part of the grand scheme, its creators went to great lengths to establish that contact between Athas and the rest of the multiverse was absolutely, totally, and in all other ways inconceivable. Its crystal shell was impenetrable; the Gray stood between it and all other planes; et cetera. This was necessary to ensure that middling-high-level PCs couldn't just open a gate to the Forgotten Realms and start importing wagon trains of food, water, and metal, but it had the effect of sealing Athas within its own peculiar cosmology.

Didn't Dark Sun have elemental and paraelemental clerics? Actually, Planescape had an aside reference to Dark Sun characters visiting the outer planes.

Edit: Ninja