D&D 5E New legends and lore.....multiclassing sneak peak

[Chris_Nightwing]

About attack bonuses, it would be so much simpler if all classes just had the same progression, in which case a multiclass PC would simply have the attack bonus according to the total level.

This idea has been talked about before. Same progression doesn't mean everyone is equally good at fighting, since each class has different proficiencies (you don't get the attack bonus on weapons you're not proficient with) and its own combat abilities/boosts that make overall a lot of difference.

As an example, a Mage with same attack bonus as a Fighter is not nearly as good as him in combat. It doesn't really matter if the Mage get the same attack bonus because the Mage is always better off using spells, and the Fighter has so many combat additions that even with the same attack bonus the Mage always pales in comparison when swinging a weapon.

Furthermore, bounded accuracy means that even with each class having its own unique attack bonus progression, the different wouldn't be large. So why have a difference at all?

This works for attacks because proficiencies are packaged neatly. The poor Fighter can't get any spellcasting, even a subset, without investing heavily. I think this will bite them in the ass later.

 

[Li Shenron]

This works for attacks because proficiencies are packaged neatly. The poor Fighter can't get any spellcasting, even a subset, without investing heavily. I think this will bite them in the ass later.

Maybe they need to buff the feats granting spellcasting? They currently seem more in-line with 3e feat typical power to me.

 

[Iosue]

The way spellcasting will work is somewhat as I predicted a while back. There's a fixed chart that you ascend to determine how many spells you can cast per day. I thought, however, that you would add up your individual class levels for preparation - a Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 would prepare 3 spells from each class and choose which ones to cast with which slots. Mike wrote that you'll prepare as X or Y.. which means you only get 3 arcane or 3 divine spells to choose from for the day? That's not very Cleric/Wizard in my mind.

I'm not quite following you. Per Meals, you prepare spells as a 6th level character, so you get 7 prepared spells. You then choose which spells to prepare from the spells available to 3rd level Cleric and 3rd level Mage. So you could go 7M-0C, or 0M-7C, or 4M-3C, or 3M-4C, or any other combination.

 

[Falling Icicle]

After the last playtest packet, we're almost done with the classes, races, and other core elements of the game.

I sure hope not.

In order to multiclass, you simply take a level in a new character class when you gain a level.

The math for attack bonuses, saving throws, and so on scales based on your overall character level, so you don't have to worry about accidentally breaking your character.

Sounds good so far.

I'm curious how multiple attacks are handled, however.

And since you give each class its own feat progression, how does that work? This is yet another reason to have feats progress based on character level, rather than class level. Doing otherwise is just not going to work well with 3rd edition style multiclassing!

Multiclassing with spellcasting classes is somewhat similar. Your overall levels in classes that cast spells determines how many spells you can cast. Your levels in those individual classes determine which spells you can prepare. For instance, a 3rd-level mage/3rd-level cleric casts spells per day as a 6th-level character, but can choose to prepare spells available to a 3rd-level wizard or to a 3rd-level cleric. Luckily, our scaling spells ensure that you can still get the most bang for your spells.

Interesting. But since each class has a different spells per day progression, which one do you get? Do you just take the better one?

What if you combine a fighter and a mage, or a caster class with one that isn't a caster? If you want to dive deeply into such a combination, we're designing a set of subclasses that cater directly to spellcasting. The eldritch knight is a fighter subclass that augments a fighter/mage combination. The warden subclass gives a ranger/druid the flavor and forms of that character class.

So if you want to be an effective multiclass character that mixes a magic and non-magic using class, you have to be a certain subclass? I don't like that at all. Why can't you just give them the spells per day of their total character level, but only spells perpared of their caster class's level?

Our approach to low-level characters removes the abuses you can achieve by dipping into several classes by spreading out features over the first few levels.

If you say so.

For things such as weapon and armor proficiencies, we have multiclassing-specific rules to ensure that you gain some new proficiencies, but not all of them. You can't dip into fighter to gain all weapons and armor.

This I totally disagree with. Why should one fighter/wizard have fewer proficincies than another fighter/wizard, just because he happened to take fighter first?

 

[1of3]

Maybe they need to buff the feats granting spellcasting? They currently seem more in-line with 3e feat typical power to me.

That is certainly true.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I'm not quite following you. Per Meals, you prepare spells as a 6th level character, so you get 7 prepared spells. You then choose which spells to prepare from the spells available to 3rd level Cleric and 3rd level Mage. So you could go 7M-0C, or 0M-7C, or 4M-3C, or 3M-4C, or any other combination.

Multiclassing with spellcasting classes is somewhat similar. Your overall levels in classes that cast spells determines how many spells you can cast. Your levels in those individual classes determine which spells you can prepare. For instance, a 3rd-level mage/3rd-level cleric casts spells per day as a 6th-level character, but can choose to prepare spells available to a 3rd-level wizard or to a 3rd-level cleric. Luckily, our scaling spells ensure that you can still get the most bang for your spells.

You *cast* spells as a 6th level character, which makes sense. What's not clear is if you prepare 7 in a mixture of Clr/Wiz as you choose, or 4 Wiz and 4 Clr, as if you were a 3rd level of each. I misread the 'or' initially as XOR

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

So if you want to be an effective multiclass character that mixes a magic and non-magic using class, you have to be a certain subclass? I don't like that at all. Why can't you just give them the spells per day of their total character level, but only spells perpared of their caster class's level?

I don't like it either, but you can't give spellcasting slots according to character level, else it's certainly worth 1 level of Wizard for a bazillion magic missiles of various levels. I do think Fighter levels should count for something though, since Wizard levels count towards your attack modifier. It always comes down to this problem of proficiencies though - it's ok to let a Wizard have +6 to attack because it'll only be with their staff, or a sword if they invest a feat. It's not ok to let Fighters cast spells because they get all the spells, every single one of them. Now, Fighters are still better with swords because of class features, so what we need to do is make Wizards better with spells because of class features, allowing Fighters access to them in some rudimentary way. A potential start might be bringing back the 10+spell level requirement on your casting ability score. Then change the table to grant just 1 spell per spell level (so at 20th you have 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1) and a class feature for Wizards that gives you more slots for actual Wizard levels. You could also restrict spell schools, so that you only pick up 'proficiency' in one school when you multiclass, restricting your magical breadth.

 

[Li Shenron]

I sure hope not.

I am fine with the current implementation of classes, but at least I agree with you about the other stuff, especially races!

Ok I understand that my enmity towards +1 to all stats for humans is becoming the pet peeve of a niche of gamers But with the current option of swapping stat increases for feats, it should be VERY easy to apply something like that to humans racial package.

Also... they must be kidding if they think Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are finished. They look like HALF a race each at the moment! (Actually, this could be a way out of the situation with them...)

And since you give each class its own feat progression, how does that work? This is yet another reason to have feats progress based on character level, rather than class level. Doing otherwise is just not going to work well with 3rd edition style multiclassing!

I think this could be rather simple: you just get the feats when you reach that specific level in each class.

Interesting. But since each class has a different spells per day progression, which one do you get? Do you just take the better one?

Yep, this is the problem I've talking about in my previous posts It's even tougher with lesser spellcasters such as Paladins and Rangers.

So if you want to be an effective multiclass character that mixes a magic and non-magic using class, you have to be a certain subclass? I don't like that at all.

Thinking about it, you are probably right... it smells like Mystic Theurge to me. I am not convinced this is a good thing to do, although it might just be the easiest solution if anything else requires another major revision to all classes.

This I totally disagree with. Why should one fighter/wizard have fewer proficincies than another fighter/wizard, just because he happened to take fighter first?

I don't like this very much either... At least I hope this ONLY applies to weapon proficiencies, in that case I can still manage it... but it will also get possibly messy when someone takes more than 2 classes.

 

[Li Shenron]

You *cast* spells as a 6th level character, which makes sense. What's not clear is if you prepare 7 in a mixture of Clr/Wiz as you choose, or 4 Wiz and 4 Clr, as if you were a 3rd level of each. I misread the 'or' initially as XOR

My preference would be to prepare them separately, i.e. exactly 4 from you Wiz list + exactly 4 from Clr list.

I would understand however if they let you mix them for more flexibility. I think it would be anyway very flexible without mixing because then, since the slots are the same, you can still CAST only Wiz spells or only Clr spells (or any combo) during each day.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I am fine with the current implementation of classes, but at least I agree with you about the other stuff, especially races!

Ok I understand that my enmity towards +1 to all stats for humans is becoming the pet peeve of a niche of gamers But with the current option of swapping stat increases for feats, it should be VERY easy to apply something like that to humans racial package.

Also... they must be kidding if they think Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are finished. They look like HALF a race each at the moment! (Actually, this could be a way out of the situation with them...)

I agree. Humans, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs still need a complete overhaul.

I think this could be rather simple: you just get the feats when you reach that specific level in each class.

But then multiclassing could delay your acquisition of feats. I don't think a multiclass character should get fewer feats, or have to wait longer to get them, than single class characters.