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D&D 5E Are DMs the Swing Vote?

Mearls is just wrong: from personal experience, I'd say players can be just as much edition warriors as any DM.

I'd go even further than that. Nerds as a whole (GM and player alike) are every bit as impetuous and strident in their opinions and in their willingness to weaponize them. Nerds exhibit every bit of the cargo cult and tribal sociopathy that rabid sports fans do. The idea that any collective is able to simultaneously inhabit both temperance and passion, especially with respect to their intellectual and leisure cornerstone pursuits, strikes me as either willfully ignorant or vapid, cumbaya' boiler plate material. When I read that I rolled my eyes so hard that they probably heard it down the street.
 

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I am curious to the reasons you have for not wanting to DM 4e when you like playing it as a player. Care to elaborate a little? :)

I can't speak for [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION], but I hold the same position: I enjoyed playing 4th Edition, but not DMing it. The main reason being the familiarity I have with 3rd Edition. The knowledge base that I have developed after 13 years of playing 3rd Edition allows me to manipulate the system to achieve my desired outcome. In addition, I have a substantial database of characters, NPCs, Monsters, and numerous random tables specific to 3rd Edition. It would require too much time and energy to develop the same experience level and resources to run a 4th Edition game. At this stage in my life, I am not interested in putting forth the effort.
 

That's why I often copy PC powers, only using monster math instead of PC math. But then I've got lots of experience with this now.
I avoided doing that when I was writing my monsters, as I ended up posting a PDF of a good 100 monsters and wanted to avoid obvious copyright violations...
But I'm probably the exception to the rule, so that's good advice.
 

4e encounters seem to work best when you think of them like an blockbuster action movie fight scene. You're spending ten thousand dollars per minute on the scene so it had better count and not be this throw away moment. Fights have to "matter".
If you're going to spend 30-90 minutes on a battle you don't do it for no reason.
Which means they should have some elements of a set piece.

As a DM I always found this frustrating. My stories seldom fit the 4e action design and I always had to balance what I wanted to tell with what the big action scenes. The first year of my game suffered for this until I found the groove.

I pretty much no longer write my own adventures, often converting old ones (as there's very few 4e adventures out there compared to 3.x or Pathfinder). I use whatever cool thing the author came up with, often removing large numbers of encounters but stealing whatever cool things I might have seen and putting them into new ones.

Or sometimes just steal what I saw in a movie. (But not Avengers, as the whole group saw that!)

I avoided doing that when I was writing my monsters, as I ended up posting a PDF of a good 100 monsters and wanted to avoid obvious copyright violations...
But I'm probably the exception to the rule, so that's good advice.

I see the link to the webcomic, but I don't know what monsters you are talking about. Have you sold a PDF? (IIRC, you can use anything in the PH1 and PH2 according to the GSL rules. Which is a bit of a headache, if you ever wanted to sell something that included a knight-flavored NPC. But I've been told that's allowed. Somehow. Is there a GSL help website out there somewhere? I bet EN Publishing knows those rules inside out and backwards.)
 

I'd go even further than that. Nerds as a whole (GM and player alike) are every bit as impetuous and strident in their opinions and in their willingness to weaponize them. Nerds exhibit every bit of the cargo cult and tribal sociopathy that rabid sports fans do. The idea that any collective is able to simultaneously inhabit both temperance and passion, especially with respect to their intellectual and leisure cornerstone pursuits, strikes me as either willfully ignorant or vapid, cumbaya' boiler plate material. When I read that I rolled my eyes so hard that they probably heard it down the street.
The sports analogy is actually quite good.
While everyone knows the die hard supporter, they're quite likely a minority. There are millions of sports fans but only a few hundred that paint their bodies or go to every game. And there's bound to be quite a few fans that only follow a team because their friends do or because it's the local team.

Football fans still watch the Superbowl even after their team is eliminated. If there's a choice between watching an opposing team with friends or not watching the game, most fans will opt to watch.
 

I see the link to the webcomic, but I don't know what monsters you are talking about. Have you sold a PDF? (IIRC, you can use anything in the PH1 and PH2 according to the GSL rules. Which is a bit of a headache, if you ever wanted to sell something that included a knight-flavored NPC. But I've been told that's allowed. Somehow. Is there a GSL help website out there somewhere? I bet EN Publishing knows those rules inside out and backwards.)
I did an update of Ravenloft for 4e here.
95 monsters there, updated prior to the MM3 revision IIRC.
 

I'm not sure I agree. I mean, players absolutely can be just as much edition warriors as any DM; but the emphasis is definitely on can. Realistically, the vast majority of D&D players out there are casual players. They don't have the same commitment to the hobby that us forumites have - they probably don't have much if any experience with any tabletop game other than D&D, and might not even be aware of the differences between editions if they haven't undergone a transition between them under their DM. They might have preferences for one edition or another if they have played multiple editions, and sure, some might feel strongly enough about it that they won't play a particular edition, but the average player? The average player shows up to hang out, drink and eat table snacks while make-believing that they're dragon-slaying elves with friends, and will likely acquiesce to their DM when it comes to such unimportant things as the rules of the game.
Do you have access to a study showing that most players are casual? Or is that just your belief?

Because that has not been my experience. But for the newest players- like people I was instrumental in teaching to play- more than 75% of he players I have personally encountered since 1977 have been anything but casual players. My current group of buddies can be divided into gamers, non-gamers, and one casual player.

Now, you can argue that it's not the average player who's participating in the playtest, that it's those of us who do care about stuff like the rules... but honestly, at this point, I think if you're still participating in the playtest after everything we've seen so far, it's because you're onboard with - or want to be onboard with - the central conceit of Next, which is that this is the Unity Edition.

...and our group is not participating. The gamers in the group- @11 guys, all with more than a decade and a half in the hobby- are not interested in the playtest precisely because they're largely NOT interested in what has been said about 5Ed.

(Personally, I'm treating it like I have all the previous editions. I'll buy the core rules and decide from there.)

Next will rise or fall on the grounds of how many DMs it will convince to transition their groups. As the DM goes, so go the casual players.

Again, my personal experience says otherwise. Unless you can get 5+ of the gamers in our group on board, you can just forget about running a game.



That room contains several dozen boardgames, wargames, CCGs, CMGs and @65 RPGs. Since 1998, the only RPG campaigns it has hosted were run in D&D, M&M, and RIFTS. I have not even been able to run a single night of gaming in my favorite RPG system.

My prior group- in another city- ran games a greater variety of systems. But in that group, the "social contract" was that everybody ran a game, and everybody had a PC in everyone's campaign. If you didn't like a particular system, a bit of polite patience & participation would be rewarded when the other players respectfully reciprocated.

So I say again, it is not necessarily the DMs who decide- the players can have just as much of a say. If the players simply acquiesce to the DM, that only means they don't have a strong preference.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. ~ Rush"
 
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I am curious to the reasons you have for not wanting to DM 4e when you like playing it as a player. Care to elaborate a little? :)

I disliked the lack of mechanical and flavor continuity (I wanted a tweak to 3.5Ed, not a replacement); I don't like the differing rules for NPCs vs PCs; I don't like the fiddly nature of combat modifiers...the list goes on and on. Its fine fun when I only have to control one PC, but never, ever will I run it as a DM.

A good portion of it is that I can play 4Ed as just another FRPG, but as a DM, it constantly reminds me of the things I felt that were essential to D&D that are no longer present, or present only in forms I find unacceptable.

But part of it is some of the design decisions I find to be simply bad game design or even nonsensical- and again, as a DM, it is harder to ignore those elements.
 
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Dannyalcatraz said:
My prior group- in another city- ran games a greater variety of systems. But in that group, the "social contract" was that everybody ran a game, and everybody had a PC in everyone's campaign. If you didn't like a particular system, a bit of polite patience & participation would be rewarded when the other players respectfully reciprocated.
Same with my group. Though we all have preferences about games and editions of D&D, we are very laid back and willing to compromise so that all of us can be involved. Inclusion and spending time together is just more important to us.

For now that means we have been enjoying 4e. Heck, I even ran a straight up old school dungeon crawl (Dragon Mountain), and it went off smoothly despite playing against 4e's "cinematic action adventure" leaning. However, if the next of us to DM wanted to try out D&D Next, Pathfinder, 1e or whatever, then we'd probably rally behind the idea.

So yes, I'd agree DM's steer the group toward one system or another, but really for my group it has to be unanimous agreement.
 

Mearls is just wrong: from personal experience, I'd say players can be just as much edition warriors as any DM.

Well, maybe yes, maybe no.

Here's the thing - every communication has an intended/expected audience, right? His current audience are people who are interested in 5e, right? Have probably at least looked at playtest documents (since they're available for free), and have probably been following development in some way or other (seeing as his column is *about* development...

How likely is his audience to be edition warriors?
 

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