Calling out, "systems mastery"

[Cyclone_Joker]

But weren't you already able to cast spells of the level granted by Versatile Spellcaster? What has changed? The spell which you cast by Versatile Spellcaster must be one which is already known, not one which can be cast based on triggers of Versatile Spellcaster.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Versatile Spellcaster makes your highest level = whatever it was +1. Elven Wizard and Domain Wizard then work their magic and jump up too, repeating the cycle up to 9s.

 

[Libramarian]

This thread has inspired me to run Basic D&D and nothing else.

This thread has inspired me to avoid people who are posting here because they've been permabanned from the WotC forums.

 

[delericho]

known spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks.

One does not have metamagic feat altered spells in one's spellbook...

Actually, I checked my PHB last night, and there actually isn't any requirement that the Wizard be able to cast spells of level X to copy them into his spellbook - all that's required is a Spellcraft check (or read magic) to decipher the source text, a second Spellcraft check to understand the text, and then time and materials to copy the spell. (The SRD contains the same, here.)

(And, in case you're wondering, that's what I get out of threads of this sort - the fact-checking required means I learn all sorts of new stuff about how the game works. I'm still sticking with my opinion as expressed in my first post in this thread - this whole 'trick' is a nonsense.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm still sticking with my opinion as expressed in my first post in this thread - this whole 'trick' is a nonsense.

+1 to that.

 

[Ragmon]

I'm still confused. Where do the extra slots come from?

I get from the vague wording in the UA that you are arguing that as soon as you have a spell of a certain slot (able to cast 2 2nd level spells, means 3rd level slot and thus up to 9th) that you know all. But I don't understand where you are getting these slots at first level. Perhaps it is some other part of the build I haven't seen yet.

But if you need 2 lvl 1 slots to get a lvl 2 spell, and 2 2s to get a 3 and so on.. then to get one 9th you need 2 8th, 4 7th, 8 6th, 16 5th, 32 4th, 64 3rd, 128 2nd and 256 1st (512 0s) to get a single 9th level spell at first level.

What am I missing? Because if it had been this easy to defeat the argument it would have been thought of before.

9s =/= 9th level spells. As far as I see it the point he was making is he can get 9 spell slots as a wizard (his kind of wizard) at 1st level. I much as I gathered.

 

[Dwimmerlied]

(...I'm still sticking with my opinion as expressed in my first post in this thread - this whole 'trick' is a nonsense.)

Especially when considered in light of the original arguments

 

[delericho]

I get from the vague wording in the UA that you are arguing that as soon as you have a spell of a certain slot (able to cast 2 2nd level spells, means 3rd level slot and thus up to 9th) that you know all. But I don't understand where you are getting these slots at first level. Perhaps it is some other part of the build I haven't seen yet.

Okay, you need four things:

- Elven Generalist. This gives you 1 extra slot of each level that you can cast.

- Domain Specialist. This gives you 1 extra slot of each level that you can cast.

- Alacritous Cogitation. This isn't actually used, but it's a prerequisite for:

- Versatile Spellcaster. This allows you to trade two slots of the same level to cast one spell of the next higher level.

(Note: I don't have the books to hand, so the above may not be 100% accurate.)

So, you're a 1st level Wizard. You combine two of your 1st level slots to cast a 2nd level spell.

Of course, this means you can now cast a 2nd level spell. Therefore, Elven Generalist and Domain Specialist each give you a 2nd level slot.

You then use Versatile Spellcaster to combine those slots to cast a 3rd level spell. Of course, this means you can now cast a 3rd level spell. Therefore, Elven Generalist and Domain Specialist each give you a 3rd level slot.

So you use VS to combine those slots to cast a 4th level spell...

And so it goes, all the way up to 9th level.

That's how the trick 'works'.

 

[Cadence]

That's how the trick 'works'.

It is a nice example of why its sad when a version isn't supported anymore... no more FAQs or errata.

 

[pemerton]

So, you're a 1st level Wizard. You combine two of your 1st level slots to cast a 2nd level spell.

Of course, this means you can now cast a 2nd level spell. Therefore, Elven Generalist and Domain Specialist each give you a 2nd level slot.

You then use Versatile Spellcaster to combine those slots to cast a 3rd level spell. Of course, this means you can now cast a 3rd level spell. Therefore, Elven Generalist and Domain Specialist each give you a 3rd level slot.

So you use VS to combine those slots to cast a 4th level spell...

And so it goes, all the way up to 9th level.

That's how the trick 'works'.

I strongly agree with [MENTION=13107]tomBitonti[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION] that Versatile Spellcaster can't be used this way, as it requires that a spell of the new, higher level, be known. This is clearly intended to impose a balance requirement preventing just this sort of nonsense.

I also agree with those who argued on the other thread (and maybe this one - I skimmed over the middle 20-odd posts) that the two alternative class features, each of which requires trading away specialisation, are clearly not intended to be combined.

The method of interpretation being applied to set up this "9s-at-1st" build has no basis in any theory of interpreting legal instruments that I'm aware of, and I don't see why it should be allowed to operate in D&D.

 

[delericho]

I strongly agree with [MENTION=13107]tomBitonti[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION] that Versatile Spellcaster can't be used this way, as it requires that a spell of the new, higher level, be known. This is clearly intended to impose a balance requirement preventing just this sort of nonsense.

I also agree with those who argued on the other thread (and maybe this one - I skimmed over the middle 20-odd posts) that the two alternative class features, each of which requires trading away specialisation, are clearly not intended to be combined.

The method of interpretation being applied to set up this "9s-at-1st" build has no basis in any theory of interpreting legal instruments that I'm aware of, and I don't see why it should be allowed to operate in D&D.

Oh, I agree absolutely. From my first post on this thread:

Put bluntly, I don't even consider that interpretation worth addressing. It was clearly not the intent of the designers that 1st level casters should have access to 9th level spells. It's also pretty clear that Elven Generalist and Domain Specialist should be either/or abilities - each removes the ability to specialise; they just use slightly different wording to do it. Versatile Spellcaster clearly wasn't intended to be a "rinse and repeat" ability. And it's also a huge stretch to allow the caster to claim the 'knowledge' class feature from Domain Specialist before applying VS and then claiming the 'extra slot' feature after doing so - without which the whole edifice falls down.

I was merely laying out the method used, as Tovec had indicated that he was unsure.