Alignment violations and how to deal with them

I don't think any edition of D&D has written alignments properly.

That's been the biggest problem with alignment since the beginning. The initial descriptions were very vague and even Gygax has some biases that negatively influenced how the alignments were perceived (you can see this come to its laughable fruition in the 4e alignment system). Worse, different writers have had entirely different takes on what the system describes or means, including some that are down right contradictory. All this inconsistency has increased the natural inconsistency you'd expect to see when people define the terms.

Palladium, a system whose rules I can't stand, has far better alignment rules than D&D IMO.

I don't know that they are better, but they are at least described and an attempt to be consistent in the description is made. I have some quibbles with how they define 'neutrality'* and they like many others seem to have trouble grasping neutral evil's essential nature**, but on the whole, that is indeed a better job than D&D has managed in any of its official works.

*(So many writer's describing alignment get stuck on 'selfish'. Insane is another concept that causes many writers fits.)
**(Simplified, LE: I'm destructive for the sake of my society. CE: I'm destructive for the sake of myself. NE: Who needs a reason to be destructive?)

I also think a lot of alignment restrictions are silly. I don't have a problem with a chaotic monk or a lawful barbarian. Alignments aren't really a part of the rules, and I'd rather avoid that kind of conflict if possible.

Most alignment restrictions end up coming from a 'alignment defines personality' mindset that I deplore, or else mistake the 'law vs. chaos' conflict for being 'man vs. nature' or 'civilization vs. barbarism' which is silly. I get rid of all alignment restrictions pretty much in my home brew, though some classes - notably Cleric and Champion have alignment dependent powers are must 'fix' their alignment to begin with based on their character building choices. This is because Cleric and Champion derive their power from championing a particular philosophical cause.
 

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Dealing With Alignment Issues
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So, your noble group of world-saving, evil-destroying heroes just burned down an orphanage, punched an old lady, and kicked a sack of puppies. No, the puppies weren't evil. They've done something clearly outside the bounds of "Heroic" fantasy, and are toying with a greyer morality than the alignment system implies. What's a DM to do?

The first thing to understand is that one-offs don't necessarily mean an alignment change. Kicking one sack of puppies isn't going to turn your noble Lawful Good paladin Chaotic Evil. Alignment describes a pattern of behavior, so before you even contemplate an alignment change, make sure that this kind of thing happens over multiple sessions. You may want to tell a player explicitly when you think they're doing something that might violate their alignment, but make it clear that it also requires a pattern: "Make a habit of kicking puppies, and that might mean re-evaluating your alignment."

The next thing is that this might just be a miscommunication or misunderstanding. Maybe the player WANTED to play Lawful Good, but found themselves instead playing closer to Chaotic Neutral. In most cases, this won't be a problem: simply change their alignment to match their current behavior, and call it a day. It might also be the case that the player has a different interpretation of "Lawful Good" than you do. While the meanings of the alignments are pretty clear, there's a lot of nuance that -- intentionally -- isn't captured. If the player has a different understanding than you do as the DM, talk it over with them. If you agree, great, they keep their alignment. If you disagree, that's fine, their alignment changes. You're the DM, so you do have the final say over what the alignments mean at your table, but it's often constructive to have a dialogue rather than just laying down the law, so consider if you can say "yes." If you can, it's usually better to do that.

Ready_Mozica__KICK_THE_PUPPY_by_Silent_Mime.jpg

"My paladin order believes that cats rule and dogs drool, so this is actually not an evil act for us."

An alignment change by itself isn't a punishment or a restriction. Alignment is just a tool to describe the kind of character you're playing, so if you're finding that a different alignment is a better fit for a given character, it's usually not a big deal just to cross out one pair of words, and write in another. No muss, no fuss. If the disagreement threatens to de-rail the game, don't be too afraid to pull the "I'm the DM" card to get things back on track. When the disagreeing player is the DM, they can define alignments however they want, but for now, they're signing up to your definition.

In some games, or with certain classes or spells or abilities, it can matter a bit more. If you're playing a game where Paladins Must Be Lawful Good, and you and your player disagree about what makes a Lawful Good character, you want to be very clear about the kind of character the player is intending on playing. In these cases, the responsibility is yours as a DM to make sure that the players are at least aware of the consequences of their actions. If your Chaotic Neutral priest of Freedom risks offending their god because they paid their local taxes (or whatever), you should make it very clear to the player that this is a consequence for their action, before the action happens. It's not fun to come to a game where you suddenly have a useless character just because you and the DM disagreed on whether or not you could tell a lie. And remember the first point, above: a one-off doesn't mean you change alignments. So you should have plenty of time to let a player know the consequences of their actions well in advance of them actually triggering any mechanical effect. Conflicted knights and divine retribution can make really interesting stories, but if that's not what the player is interested in playing, you don't need to force them down that path.

Ultimately, it may be worth considering if alignment is adding much of anything to your games, if you find yourself getting caught up in issues of definition. Alignment is intended to enable heroic fantasy by pointing out who the Good Guys and who the Bad Guys (and who the Blue Guys and who the Orange Guys) are in bright lights, as a way to enforce those mythic conflicts between good and evil and law and chaos. It's not required for that, though, and many games benefit greatly from a system with more shades of gray and less strict "teams." There's scads of alternate alignment systems out there, and you can drop it without affecting mechanical balance or control at all. If you use rules that hinge off of alignment, it's easy to remove that joint and just allow the rule to any character that can access it. If your table has a Priest of Freedom who pays their taxes, maybe they have a reason, or maybe they hide their sin or maybe they're conflicted between supporting their local schools and fighting against the pointless government that builds them or maybe they see cosmic freedom as served better with local laws. Or whatever. Without alignment, it really doesn't matter: you can let the player make up their own version of what is right or wrong with their character. This might make the "teams" less clear, so if your game is about cosmic conflict and Heroes vs. Villains, it's worth considering how else to get at those teams, but if your game is more about one group of mercenaries or just personal, character-driven missions for the PC's, alignment might distract more than it enhances.
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In the end, the call is yours. Just remember that alignment is a pattern, it is open to some interpretation (and it is your interpretation as DM that matters ultimately), and when a change in alignment has some effect other than the words on the sheet, it's a good idea to make sure that the change is voluntary. The player should never be surprised by a change in alignment that suddenly renders their character significantly less useful (even if the character may be).

Hope that helps!
 
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A problem that can rise up is casting spells with an alignment descriptor. In 3E, Create Undead has the Evil descriptor. Does a LN player become LE because of repeat casting of Create Undead? If a player creates undead and uses them to help build a levee to prevent a town from being flooded, how is this action to be adjudicated?

It's really up to the DM. Some considerations I might make:

a) Is the character ignorant or misguided? If the character doesn't know the spell is evil and legitimately believes that creating undead serves a good purpose, that would be a strong mitigating factor in how I'd assess the action.
b) If the character does know what he's doing is evil, is he legitimately distraught and repentant about the action and prepared to accept the consequences? If the character believes he is simply being pragmatic, that is to say - if you commit an evil for worthy ends it's ok - this implies a shift from Good to Neutrality. Good and evil aren't being considered ends unto themselves, but tools for achieving something the character wants. The less altruistic the use, the less weal is involved in the use, the faster I'd make this shift.
c) How prolonged is the activity? I'm more interested in doing the same thing on 10 days, than 10 times on one day. I'd treat the later as a single action, since there hasn't been time to learn from or evaluate the action.

In general, I'd try to convey subtly why creating undead was evil if my players tried to do so for some noble and pragmatic reason:

a) If you summon up enough undead to usefully help build a levy, chances are you are eventually going to exceed your ability to command and control that much undead. Ooopps. Now your undead are attacking the villagers you tried to save.

b) If you have fresh bodies on hand, chances are these are the bodies of the relatives of the people you are trying to save. This creates all sorts of emotional awkwardness - ranging from anger at the violation against the person's body, to attempts to relate to the body as if it was still the living person (daddy? hug me daddy!?!?!), to fear and anger (the person in question use to abuse one of the still living persons).

c) You've just increased the amount of latent evil in the world. If you cast detect evil, it will be clear that the 'pollution' as a side effect of your spell will linger and spread over time. Likely it will be diluted and swallowed up among the prevailing miasma, but in the particular case of a PC repeatedly casting an evil spell, because that player is a Destined character (having destiny points) there is a 100% chance universe will take notice. Your levy now becomes a minor nexus of evil. It remembers the event that occurred. Evil spirits move in and haunt the area. Minor curses occur to those that linger there. Bodies buried in the area have a small chance of rising as zombies. Any violence that now occurs there will certainly be recorded at least in the form of phantasms and haunts. Anyone that dies there now has an increased chance of becoming a ghost because the immediate environs in the spirit world are now less welcoming and more confusing and painful to anyone that finds themselves in them; it's easier to get lost and not move on, and of course if you are evil the spirits of the place will welcome you and encourage you to not move on. You now have a mess to clean up similar to if you'd poured toxic chemicals all over the place.

d) It's worth noting that my world uses Fear/Horror/Madness rules, and all undead have a fear aura by default. While a zombie lacks the charisma or HD for a strong fear aura, it's still enough to terrify many commoners which in and of itself could have problems. Some of the weak willed and cowardly could potentially drown themselves trying to avoid contact with the zombies. Add to that circumstantial modifiers (it's the body of a recently hanged rapist) or phobias (fear of dead things), and you have a potential mess.

e) I will try to convey to the character that the private experience of casting the spell repeatedly has left a latent taint in themselves, and (particularly if the character has a high wisdom score) that they are noting a persistent change in their own feelings and emotions. They notice themselves looking at the bodies of the living and at the living themselves as mere objects. They notice a hunger for casting the spell again. They notice suppressing of their positive emotions - less joy in meals, companionship, or things that used to cause them pleasure. They notice conversely stronger feelings of disgust and dislike, and perhaps passing moments where they are no longer distinguishing between the living and the dead and find the living revolting decaying corpses.

f) Exposure to the undead could trigger latent necrophile tendencies in the weak willed or susceptible. That neutral kid who was leaning evil but reluctant or fearing to go down that path, seeing the players do this awesome thing with the undead, might now be provoked into seeking necromantic power. That mildly sociopathic person whose evil lay as dormant potential, as yet unacted on, might become obsessed. I'd probably only go this route if I'd prior created NPC's who might logically act in that manner, but if I had them at hand their evil meters might crank up a notch - and ironically the more the PC's tried to cover up the horror of the thing - the more likely I'd consider this a fair non-metagamey outcome.

Similarly, Summon Monster summons monsters with alignments. Are the creatures just stat bags, or do they carry an alignment taint?

In my game? Yeah, they definitely carry alignment taint and they are definitely not just stat bags. Summoning up evil beings is evil, regardless of the purpose you put them too. Spell or no spell, you can't get a Celestial templated creature to knowingly kill or injure a good and innocent being. If you did manage it, woe be unto you.

Similarly, Poison use is usually defined as evil. I have a goblin alchemist whom I play as NG, but who uses poison. Does that make him evil?

See above description of using evil spells. Personally, I see poison as not being inherently evil and more of a moral grey area. Good people avoid poisons because they encourage treachery, prevent mercy, and have a tendency to accidentally effect people you don't intend them to effect. On the other hand, poisoning a rampaging dragon or a nest of giant ants could be morally justified. Executing a murderer by poisoning him with a fast acting painless toxin rather than by some more painful means as an act of mercy could be morally justified. If killing itself can be morally justified, the means don't matter so much.

There can often be a problem of characters in a civilized area. Many typical adventurer actions are not lawful.

Depends on the group. However, in general, if you play with normal Americans you will not get a lot of well described and well played lawful character concepts. Lawfulness doesn't come easy to most Americans IMO (Mormons and a few other groups being exceptions.) So lawful mindedness can be something that they struggle with, particularly if the DM has a similar anti-authoritarian inclination and tends to have all NPCs in authority be self-serving jerks who exclude and alienate the PCs right from the start.

At that level, the game is more like chess than a role playing game, and alignment considerations are almost entirely absent. That is, the players are trained to not consider alignment for their actions.

If they are so trained, it is the fault of the DM. Players that want to approach the whole game as a tactical combat game are best advised to play a neutral character, since in practice that is what they will do anyway.
 
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Firstly: which edition? Because, as noted, alignment has become less of an issue as the editions have gone on.

We're playing 2nd. Because it's what I have and know. I don't think there are too many changes beyond some more lenient alignment restrictions for certain classes.

I think I might need to walk the newbies through the alignments again. Thank you for some very cohesive description of each axis!

The problem isn't that the character in question has a restricted alignment (he's a fighter/mage) - but that he wants to work towards gaining prestige in a church dedicated to a neutral good goddess. So he wants to be / thinks he is a neutral good character. Yet he often goes for 'overkill' (literally) in trying to subdue anyone who isn't his immediate ally.

Maybe the problem in question here isn't he doesn't understand his own alignment, but that he doesn't get the different between a villain and 'that guy who isn't on your side'

Hmm, you have given me some very good food for thought.
 


We're playing 2nd.

Cool. It's been a very long time since I played 2nd, but I had a huge amount of fun doing so back in the day.

I think I would be inclined tomake two changes to 2nd Ed's handling of alignments:

- I would be inclined to drop the bit from the DMG about characters losing XP, or advancing at a much slower rate, if they change alignment. But that's just my preference - I prefer "personality defines alignment", rather than the converse, and that rule impedes that, IMO.

- I would also make sure my players knew to ignore the "CN is basically insane" stuff from the PHB. That little nugget caused me way too much hassle over the years. :)

The problem isn't that the character in question has a restricted alignment (he's a fighter/mage) - but that he wants to work towards gaining prestige in a church dedicated to a neutral good goddess. So he wants to be / thinks he is a neutral good character. Yet he often goes for 'overkill' (literally) in trying to subdue anyone who isn't his immediate ally.

Aha! You're actually in a lucky position here - it's not so much that the player is concerned about alignment infractions, but rather that he wants to uphold a particular alignment for in-game reasons. And that gives you a nice in-game way to handle things...

Basically, have the other NPCs in the church of the goddess react to the character differently, depending on how he acts. If he exemplifies the goddess' ethos, including alignment, then he should have a high standing, and be well-regarded generally. If he becomes too bloodthirsty, have his kindly mentor in the church have a quiet word... "We admire your zeal, but have you considered that not all who oppose us are truly evil at heart?" and so forth.

IOW, I don't think you have a game-rules problem here, but more an in-game opportunity.

Just a thought...
 

The problem isn't that the character in question has a restricted alignment (he's a fighter/mage) - but that he wants to work towards gaining prestige in a church dedicated to a neutral good goddess. So he wants to be / thinks he is a neutral good character. Yet he often goes for 'overkill' (literally) in trying to subdue anyone who isn't his immediate ally.

Aha! You're actually in a lucky position here - it's not so much that the player is concerned about alignment infractions, but rather that he wants to uphold a particular alignment for in-game reasons. And that gives you a nice in-game way to handle things...

Basically, have the other NPCs in the church of the goddess react to the character differently, depending on how he acts. If he exemplifies the goddess' ethos, including alignment, then he should have a high standing, and be well-regarded generally. If he becomes too bloodthirsty, have his kindly mentor in the church have a quiet word... "We admire your zeal, but have you considered that not all who oppose us are truly evil at heart?" and so forth.

Agreed. It doesn't really matter if the Church is the exact definition of NG alignment, a borderline case focusing on only a small aspect, or isn't NG at all. The tenets of the Church can be defined separate and apart from any argument over what the alignment represents. Defining these to exactly match the book tenets of NG, maybe expanding on some (like "this means violence is a last resort method of dispute resolution" or, if we need to dumb it down "sucker punching the guy ahead of you in line or beating an answer out of a passerby is not Good even if you are in a hurry").
 

It's really up to the DM. Some considerations I might make:

Remaining text omitted. (Nice write up.)

I agree with all of this. However, I have found substantial disagreement from various players, to the extent of complete disagreement and unwillingness to consider the ideas as possibly valid.

That might have been self serving bias: One player liked to play a mage and didn't want to be restricted as far as what creatures he could summon. (Side question: What happens if a player summons all alignments of creatures?)

Thx!

TomB
 

Dealing With Alignment Issues
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So, your noble group of world-saving, evil-destroying heroes just burned down an orphanage, punched an old lady, and kicked a sack of puppies. No, the puppies weren't evil. They've done something clearly outside the bounds of "Heroic" fantasy, and are toying with a greyer morality than the alignment system implies. What's a DM to do?

I'm finding the quoted text to be amusing. I would consider a paladin who kicked a sack of puppies to have violated their code and to immediately lose their powers. Intentionally causing harm to a helpless innocent is a strong violation! A person doesn't need to have a string of bank robberies to go to jail. Just one is sufficient. (More means a stronger punishment, not none at all.)

What should happen if a paladin, after a very stressful discussion with a city official, turned and struck a servant out of rage? More interesting would be if the paladin unfairly scolded the servant, or failed to leave a customary tip.

Generally, I've found players to be strongly opposed to any sorts of restrictions. The quoted text is an example, where the tone diminishes the extent of consequence, and generally allowing singular or infrequent deviations. The opposition seems quite strong.

Thx!

TomB
 

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