Pathfinder 1E Is Pathfinder going to slow down?

[N'raac]

Putting forth the Barbarian/Oracle "cheat" to my children, they responded that don't think they would take the level in oracle on anything like a regular basis for their Barbarian characters. There are other workarounds to fatigue and its rarely that big an issue anyway in actual play (especially by 9th level, which the the first time you could do it). Most of the time, when the barbarian finishes raging, the fight is over. The few times it was an issue in fight, in our current game, the divine channeler was able to remove the fatigue with a touch. The loss of speed also dismays my oldest daughter who apparently is partial to the fast movement of a barbarian (though she normally plays spellcasters). So I doubt this is going to be much of an issue for our game.

I quite agree - it's not an issue in ours either. It is, however, the "go to min/max build" for entering and leaving rage to use powers that work once per rage, etc. If ou play with gamers building characters rather than optimised stat blocks (and it sounds like you do), I suspect it is rarely or never seen.

 

[Kramodlog]

I do not think that designers at Paizo should try to change their design philosophy and try to avoid too much of abilities that could be used by optimizers. 3e, 3.5 and PF have been around 13 years with optimization and seem to be doing fine. 4e tried to solve the problem and it didn't last 3 years. Maybe it is just part of what D&D is and it is better with than without.

 

[Lord_Blacksteel]

Either way, 54 books is a lot of books to buy if you are new to the official Pathfinder world setting. Sure no one needs all of it, but for those who "want to do it right" it is an almost insurmountable hill of books to climb. I would call this bloat. However, since the APs are the focus of the world it is easy to compartmentalize purchases around them. Of course each AP has more than just the 6 adventure books; they also have map packs, setting material, pawns, player guidebooks, etc a GM can buy as well. I do worry, that this is a lot to present to a new group trying out Pathfinder. Where do they start?

That's exactly it - I've been running 4E for the last 3 years (and still am) paying only minimal attention to Pathfinder. Now that I'm starting up a new PF campaign with the new AP I'm picking up the material relevant to that AP. That plus the World Guide gives me everything I need and then some.

I think Pathfinder will get a significantly extended life if someone comes out with an iOS/Android app that has a sweet character builder at its base--with other add-ons like treasure builder, monster generator etc.

Hero Lab is out for the iPad now:http://wolflair.com/index.php?context=hero_lab

And so is Combat Manager: http://combatmanager.com/

Those cover just about everything you would need to build a character and run a game.

Due to the nature of how Pathfinder doesn't include everything you need in stat blocks, the game has become far more complex than 3E in terms of system mastery. This is particularly evident in NPC stat blocks, where you'll get a lot of obscure references. There is basically a requirement now to have a device with you to access the PRD, because looking up every reference in the actual books is terribly time-consuming. (Doing it on-the-fly at the table? You probably couldn't carry all the books there).

3E did this same thing and I had the same problem when I ran it - because I ran it all on paper. That "requirement to have a device" to me now is a feature because we have devices and tools that make it far more easy to run than it was before. One laptop or tablet and possibly an internet connection and all of that hassle goes away. One of 4E's less discussed improvements was the complete monster statblock, no outside references needed. PF doesn't have that but the right tools make it less of an issue.

And going back to the original question, well yes, someday it will, just like every other RPG. If you're asking "when?" I'd say the answer is "not yet". The launch of Next is the next potential bump in the road as it could pull players away if it's a big hit or it could drive more to them if it's not well received. Beyond some major swing there I think it will be awhile before we see any decline in PF.

 

[delericho]

3E did this same thing and I had the same problem when I ran it - because I ran it all on paper. That "requirement to have a device" to me now is a feature because we have devices and tools that make it far more easy to run than it was before.

Yeah. I'm absolutely convinced that the iPad is a game-changer - while I hated it when people would bring a laptop to games (especially other players - it wasn't such an issue if the GM used one), I have no such issue with tablets and smartphones, probably purely because they lie flat on the table when not in use.

In fact, I would go so far that any large-scale RPG now must have a digital strategy in place, whether that's D&D's DDI, Pathfinder's online SRD, or something else. Indeed, any new game that isn't at least available as a PDF is probably doomed to obscurity as a result.

(That said, I don't want the laptop/tablet/whatever to be required, or even as 'required' as DDI was for 4e. But I have no problems with it being a nice to have.)

 

[gamerprinter]

We ban electronic devices at our table - even phones. They are placed on a table outside our game room. We use books and our steel-trap like memories to play.

 

[abellius]

Pathfinder will inevitably go the way of D&D. They will continue to put out more and more books until the saturation level prohibits ease of entry into the system for new players. With new players buying the system lessening and older players looking for "something different" they will see a decline of sales. They will release Pathfinder 2 in an attempt to gain new players and this will cause a rift between the "old" and the "new" edition.

Right now Pathfinder is a one-trick pony (fantasy D&D) and that is its strength. They do not have to spend resources on different audiences. They have one single, but large, audience. However, tastes change over time, even if its a case of "wanting something new". Logic (and past history of rpg games) indicates they will peak and then enter a downswing.

That's the usual curse of all RPGs - too many books over time and the competition from new RPGs on the market (shinies!!)

 

[abellius]

Nothing kills the flow of a night of adventure more than having to flip through book X and then book Y and then shuffle through Z number of printouts from online. To include all the stats required to play is to me basic 101 adventure layout and writing (the best layouts include the stats on the page it is referenced but that is another topic - and easier said than done).

Yes, I would take less adventure if it means I don't have to spend time "prepping" by downloading stats or putting a halt during game time to look something up elsewhere that is a part of the adventure.

Maybe Paizo's next innovation is to find a way to present stats of new monsters that don't take up half a page. Of course, it actually might be a good idea to include that half a page as a "sample" of what you can get in book X; it might entice people to buy it.

Either way, if I have to bring 12 books and 12 printouts to a game that will be a factor in creating "game system fatigue" - which was the initial topic of this thread. If consumers looking at an AP think they have to buy a large number of books or spend time hunting down stats to actually run it - it will be a turn-off...both to the AP and the system.

Why would you need to bring 12 books to a game anymore? Use d20pfsrd's website and Kyle Olsen's combat manager program. The only book I bring to my PF games anymore is the Core one.

 

[gamerprinter]

Why would you need to bring 12 books to a game anymore? Use d20pfsrd's website and Kyle Olsen's combat manager program. The only book I bring to my PF games anymore is the Core one.

There are places in the world without decent online access. When we play at one particular player's home (and where we play most often) only has crappy dialup internet access - and cannot get cable nor DSL being in a very rural location - and we're talking northcentral Illinois, USA, not some truly remote location. I often bring my laptap, which contain most of the PF PDFs and 3PP stuff, so we have a work-around, but the expectation that anyone playing can easily access the PRD is not a given.

 

[abellius]

There are places in the world without decent online access. When we play at one particular player's home (and where we play most often) only has crappy dialup internet access - and cannot get cable nor DSL being in a very rural location - and we're talking northcentral Illinois, USA, not some truly remote location. I often bring my laptap, which contain most of the PF PDFs and 3PP stuff, so we have a work-around, but the expectation that anyone playing can easily access the PRD is not a given.

Combat manager and a tablet/ipad/laptop is your friend. No internet required.

 

[gamerprinter]

Combat manager and a tablet/ipad/laptop is your friend. No internet required.

But if you look a couple posts above, my group doesn't really allow electronic devices in our game table. As mentioned I have brought a laptop for GM use, but they rallied against me bringing it anymore - it heats up the area around it too much. So no laptop allowed - no electronic friends.