Designing Boss Fight - Succubus (Help Appreciated)

[Trit One-Ear]

I may also change up the succubus "dominate" power to make the actual battle with her more dynamic. Rather than making it an on-turn attack, maybe let it be an immediate interrupt when she's attacked so either the attack is re-directed or if noone is within range of the attacker then it charges the nearest ally. You could also do both, with the limit of only one creature dominated at a time. She's revealed her true nature so I like the idea that dominates are momentary perception scrambles rather than the type of dominating she'd do in cognito.

I was thinking something similar, especially in Stage 3. Giving her a free action on 10+her initiative to make a... Close Burt 5 or 10 attack? Everyone she hits makes an at will atack against a nearby ally. Using [MENTION=6694112]Kinak[/MENTION]'s idea of having a whip and using it to snare people, she can then be able to redirect attack to that target. Ultimately, I find dominate to be more frustrating than fun for players, and would rather find ways to mess with them while letting them keep their actions.
[MENTION=305]Storminator[/MENTION] - Lurkers have always given me the same trouble, both as a DM and a player. A few weeks ago my Gnome Illusionist and friends fought the solo dragon in Chris Perkin's rewrite of Hill Giants (who can turn invisible very frequently) and we did essentially that - prepared actions, then nova'd. However, making her a Lurker in Stage 2 might be useful, using the portals as a means to disappear and reappear. With all the other Cambions and Devils running around, I think it could be crazy enough to keep the heroes busy while she's popping in and out.

I'm not entirely clear on how to build a Boss encounter like this while using other monsters in different stages. Combined HP (so killing the Cambion is just as effective as hitting the Succubus)? Lower her HP (so it takes about the same amount of time to get her through this stage)? Play it by ear and hope my players are strong enough? Anyone have experience with something like this?

Trit

 

[JamesonCourage]

Just a thought, but if you're going to use portals -especially if she's jumping around through them- the players may wonder why she doesn't just leave once she starts getting so desperate. So, you'll want a reason for her to stick around.

If you're thinking about her jumping in and out of the portals, I'd suggest maybe her saying "screw this, I'll get my revenge on you mortals some other time" and actually escaping through a portal to Hell at the end of Stage 2. When the players are disappointed (they're out for blood), have a portal from Hell open, dump her out, and have a powerful, commanding voice from inside the portal tell her to finish the mortals off, or die, as [the voice] doesn't tolerate failure.

This would give a logical reason for why she can't leave yet (her boss is making her stay and fight), as well as set up someone later if you ever want to draw on them (the voice). Is [the voice] mad at the party for thwarting his minion's plans? Does it not care about them? Did it see the succubus as a failure, and won't mind working with them later on? Is it an even bigger threat that they can now look into (as they level up)? Lots of options, including "it doesn't care about the PCs, and I never have to use it again." Just a thought.

I'd kick in more on the mechanical design stuff, but I'm relatively new to 4e. I think the initial stage being mostly lackeys is fine for Stage 1, and I like the portal-jumping idea for Stage 2. Stage 3 could be her beginning to summon a Balor, and you could combine a skill challenge with the combat (to stop the portal; it could even halve all damage to her while she does it, to encourage dealing with the portal first). I recently did this in one of my combats with a portal, and I allowed Arcana / Religion for specific uses (move action to deal damage + rider + a success towards the challenge), as well as any skill towards the challenge if people wanted to focus on it. It worked really well for my group, but groups differ, obviously.

Anyways, hope some of it helps, even if it just gives you cool ideas for your specific group.

 

[Storminator]

What if the cambions "stepped out" of the guards a la Alien, and the rent holes in the bodies were the portals - and one closes when a cambion dies? Then killing the minions traps her in the material plane where she can be killed, setting up stage 3.

PS

 

[Kinak]

Maybe I make it more about her jumping between portals (only being attackable every other round?) and reduce her HP proportionally. Then the Cambion guards (and maybe other devils coming through the portals) are the main focus, but there's a feeling of needing to prioritize and hit her while she's available. Plus I could add some fire effects coming from the portals to make the terrain hazardous etc. Still just spit-balling here.

This really sounds like a good time to use an in-combat skill challenge, really. In Pathfinder, I'd probably mix in some Knowledge checks as actions and allow the use of spells like consecrate, but this seems like the sort of thing skill challenge were made for.

Just spit-balling and definitely influenced by my over-the-top sensibilities, but here's how I'd handle that phase:
I'd do up four maps on Gaming Paper (or whatever you normally use): one of the council chamber and three of different hellscapes. The council chamber's walls would just be the edges of the sheet on three sides (door on the fourth). I'd also round up a ridiculous number of demonic minion tokens for each hellscape.

When stage 1 starts, mention that the walls of the council chamber are covered in beautifully detailed, but disquieting tapestries.

Then, when she reveals herself, give them the old "The tapestries on the walls burst into flames, burning away to reveal..." then lay down and describe each of the maps past the portals. Cover those maps with minions to flavor.

On her turn, if she starts in Hell, she can move freely and come out of any portal to engage with the PCs. If she started on the material, she returns through one of the portals to Hell to pick on whoever's causing the most problems.

At the same time, the minions are moving in and the areas beyond the portals are being refreshed (hence having a ton on hand). This should give everyone plenty of do and make it clear how hosed they are if they don't get the portals closed.

If the PCs are crazy, they can follow her through the portals. That's... really unwise, because there are basically endless minions and vicious environmental effects, but I'd let them trigger stage 3 early on extremely unfavorable terrain. Because following a devil to Hell to fight her there is awesome.

Don't worry too much about her HP during this phase. What matters is them closing the portals. Let anything reasonable work: Religion/Arcane checks, holy water, attacks of opposing elements, paying healing surges to block them with your own body, whatever. I'd pace them to fall one per round if the party focuses.

Whenever one of the portals is closed, remove the associated map. They don't have to deal with those minions and she can no longer use that portal to enter or leave the prime.

When they're down to one portal, I'd have her come back and enter Stage 3 to defend it. That's her way here, her way back home, and her fountain of minions. If they don't close it, she'll probably flee back through it eventually and return to haunt them later. That said, they'll probably close it, kill off her remaining minions, corner her, and take her out like big damn heroes.

These ideas are a lot of fun, thanks for posting them! Have to decide if the whip fits the scene or not (I do like the classic-ness of it), but I love the healing-sharing idea.

Glad you liked them!

I agree the whip is usually too stereotypical. If you want to use it, I'd tend towards it being a manifestation once she reveals her true form. Like, the wings come out and she flicks one wrist uncoiling a whip of smoky darkness.

Watching the Ranger accidentally plug the Paladin repeatedly is just right for a succubus fight.

Absolutely

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Manbearcat]

and try to summon a Baylor.

They can summon an entire college! Overpowered!

 

[Trit One-Ear]

[MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION] - This is a very good point, and a plot hole my players would spot in a moment. Luckily for me, it's also the perfect opportunity to clue them in to the larger plot. For you see, this succubus is not acting alone, or even for herself. Oh no, there is a plot in the workings, stemming from none other than Glasya, Asmodeus' daughter, herself!

Here's my new idea for each stage:

Opening "Cinematic"
Players can attempt to convince the Duke to see the truth, try to call the succubus out, expose her etc. While this may not direcly change the flow of events, I will award certain benefits if my players embrace the opportunity and really roleplay it well. Ultimately, however, the Duke is too entralled, and calls for the heroes' arrest. They have, after all, organized a rebellion against the Duke in order to get by the cultist agents occupying the city.

Stage 1
The guards engage the heroes, attempting to keep them from the Duke and his Council (one of which has allied himself with the heroes). 4-5(ish?) guards form a wall, but I expect this will be broken. When the players reach the Succubus, the Duke intervenes, forcing the heroes to either attack him or allow him to strike at them again and again. The Succubus uses wizard-sytle spells, some damage and some control, in line with her appearance as the Duke's Arcane Advisor. Fairly straight forward, this stage ends either when all the guards are defeated, or when the Succubus' health is drained to 2/3 her total health.

Stage 2
Seeing the heroes will evade the attempted arrest, the Succubus reveals her true form, thinking she's playing her trump card. The tapestries on the walls all burn up (@Kinark - this was acutally not far off an idea I had originally but ditched. You've convinced me it's awesome), revealing portals to four of the different Hells (I have notes on the 4E Hells, but not on me. Firey, Ice, Shadow and... Poison/Acid seem like good variations). Each Hell portal is opened by a Cambion guard who have appear from the wings behind the council chamber. From the portals, a stream (3-5 a turn? Is that too many with four portals?) of appropriately themed minions emerge. A blast 3 zone in front of each portal also becomes afflicted with some bleedoff of the Hell's specific energy (damage, difficult terrain, reduced healing etc). The Succubus disappears into one portal, and emerges every other turn afterwards to strike at heroes within range of them. Any successful attacks against her reward one success towards closing the portal she just emerged from (2 successes on a substantial hit or a crit). Heroes can make skill checks/attacks/spend surges to attempt to close each portal, 3 or 4 successes needed to close one. This stage completes when the heroes have closed 3 of the 4 portals.

Stage 3
As the last Portal begins to close, the Succubus sees her escape route closing. Leaping through before it vanishes, both she and the players are shocked when she is expelled in a erruption of fire. A soft but firm female voice echoes from within "No, Elspeth, you are not welcome to return. Not until you have proved to me you are not a failure. Do what I have charged you with. Bring me souls... starting with theirs." (The heroes do not yet realize this is Glasya, but will be quick to investigate after this!)
Trapped, Glasya attempts one large mental suggestion: SLEEP. As everyone around her succumbs to the power of her mind, she is amazed to see the heroes resist. A ritual, completed by the Head Librarian before the assault, has protected the heroes from the majority of her power. However, with the strength of this assault, the protection of the ritual has been expended.
This last stage has Elspeth (our now-named Succubus) fighting like a cornered beast, lashing out with her whip to great effect. Pulling enemies in close to seduce them (with an Aura 1 or 2 that gives -2 to Will), causing them to attack their allies, fliting around the room. I expect this phase will be fairly short lived, but with lots of friendly fire and a satisfaction watching Elspeth fall that will not be soon forgotten.

What happens after she "dies?" Will they capture her, or does she simply fade back to her displeased Mistress in Hell? Well, that's a good question. I hope I find out in the future.

I really want to thank everyone for the help this far. In the last 12 hours, I've started feeling much much better about where I stand on this Boss fight. I'm going to start drafting up some stat blocks for her different stages, but feel free to comment/critique on what I have so far!

Trit

 

[pemerton]

I want to keep the Duke in her clutches until she's defeated however. He still has enough allies that are simply following him out of habit.

<snip>

Instead of a Skill Challenge, what do you think of just adding some skill uses to influence her involvement in the fight?

I personally prefer a skill challenge because of its tendency to lead to finality in resolution - when I ran Heathen, for instance, I combined the ideas for skill use in it with the "reduce hp via social skills" approach in Cairn of the Frost King to adjudicate the PCs talking down the renegade paladin as a challenge even while they dealt with the other enemies.

The Heathen module says that, if the PCs manage to talk him down, then the paladin kills himself by ripping off his evil amulet. But in my game, when we got to this stage then the paladin PC used an interrupt to prvent this, staunching the flow of life-force as he ripped off the amulet. So he survived.

I think this sort of non-railroading makes for a better play experience. So I'm a bit wary of what you say here, that the Duke can't escape. That runs the risk of being blocking for the players. If you're worried that rescuing the Duke would make the minions give up the fight, all you have to do is have the succubus change shape to copy the Duke, and then bluff the minions into keeping going. (The PCs might then knock them out rather than kill them.)

Lurkers have always given me the same trouble, both as a DM and a player.

I can only think of two really good lurker encounters I've run - one with a solo black dragon in the original design (I know they're widely hated, but for me it ran well, because the wizard PC had a statue of the Summer Queen that he was using to dispel the darkness, at increasing difficulties); and one where a Naldrezu captured the wizard, teleported away and tried to eat him.

I think the idea of using the portals to somehow support her lurking is a good idea.[/quote]

Heroes can make skill checks/attacks/spend surges to attempt to close each portal, 3 or 4 successes needed to close one. This stage completes when the heroes have closed 3 of the 4 portals.

My thought on this is that you don't want the PCs to first kill them all (ignoring the portals) then shut down the portals (a bit tedious oustide the combat context). So you somehow need to incentivise the shutting down during the combat - linking it to the lurking succubus seems like a way to try and to this.

Also, in my experience these "close the gate" challenges during a combat are very punishing on PC action economy. So to shut down 3 out of 4 portals I would probably run it as no more than a Comp 2 challenge, with every 2 successes closing one of the portals, and this somehow progressively weakening/delurking the succubus.

 

[Quickleaf]

Haha, man foot in mouth for me (thanks for nothing auto-correct!)

One idea I have [MENTION=6678017]Trit One-Ear[/MENTION] is to make it a "save and then dominate" effect, so the PCs realize what's happening and have a chance to intervene (though intervening should be hard and require a standard action). I think a regular dominate power loses some of its dramatic teeth in combat, robbing the succubus of her cool & makin it boring for the dominated PC's player. "Save and then dominate" creates stages of control, opens up narrative options to describe the PC's struggle or the succubus' exertion of control, and requires PCs do something active to avoid it (break a mirror? read from a ritual scroll?).

 

[JamesonCourage]

@JamesonCourage - This is a very good point, and a plot hole my players would spot in a moment.

Glad we caught it in time, then

Luckily for me, it's also the perfect opportunity to clue them in to the larger plot. For you see, this succubus is not acting alone, or even for herself. Oh no, there is a plot in the workings, stemming from none other than Glasya, Asmodeus' daughter, herself!

Ooooh, interesting. Maybe we'll get an update later...?

Here's my new idea for each stage:

Opening "Cinematic"
Players can attempt to convince the Duke to see the truth, try to call the succubus out, expose her etc. While this may not direcly change the flow of events, I will award certain benefits if my players embrace the opportunity and really roleplay it well. Ultimately, however, the Duke is too entralled, and calls for the heroes' arrest. They have, after all, organized a rebellion against the Duke in order to get by the cultist agents occupying the city.

The scene is set! No problems so far.

Stage 1
The guards engage the heroes, attempting to keep them from the Duke and his Council (one of which has allied himself with the heroes). 4-5(ish?) guards form a wall, but I expect this will be broken. When the players reach the Succubus, the Duke intervenes, forcing the heroes to either attack him or allow him to strike at them again and again. The Succubus uses wizard-sytle spells, some damage and some control, in line with her appearance as the Duke's Arcane Advisor. Fairly straight forward, this stage ends either when all the guards are defeated, or when the Succubus' health is drained to 2/3 her total health.

Off to a good start.

Stage 2
Seeing the heroes will evade the attempted arrest, the Succubus reveals her true form, thinking she's playing her trump card. The tapestries on the walls all burn up (@Kinark - this was acutally not far off an idea I had originally but ditched. You've convinced me it's awesome), revealing portals to four of the different Hells (I have notes on the 4E Hells, but not on me. Firey, Ice, Shadow and... Poison/Acid seem like good variations). Each Hell portal is opened by a Cambion guard who have appear from the wings behind the council chamber. From the portals, a stream (3-5 a turn? Is that too many with four portals?) of appropriately themed minions emerge. A blast 3 zone in front of each portal also becomes afflicted with some bleedoff of the Hell's specific energy (damage, difficult terrain, reduced healing etc). The Succubus disappears into one portal, and emerges every other turn afterwards to strike at heroes within range of them. Any successful attacks against her reward one success towards closing the portal she just emerged from (2 successes on a substantial hit or a crit). Heroes can make skill checks/attacks/spend surges to attempt to close each portal, 3 or 4 successes needed to close one. This stage completes when the heroes have closed 3 of the 4 portals.

Oh, I quite like this. Sounds like a lot of fun.

I'm no expert on the number of minions, but my party of four can handle them really easily, so I could see it being higher. But they might be better at it than normal, according to [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], I think. Also, maybe reward successes for killing minions (they're linked to the portal, somehow)?

Stage 3
As the last Portal begins to close, the Succubus sees her escape route closing. Leaping through before it vanishes, both she and the players are shocked when she is expelled in a erruption of fire. A soft but firm female voice echoes from within "No, Elspeth, you are not welcome to return. Not until you have proved to me you are not a failure. Do what I have charged you with. Bring me souls... starting with theirs." (The heroes do not yet realize this is Glasya, but will be quick to investigate after this!)
Trapped, Glasya attempts one large mental suggestion: SLEEP. As everyone around her succumbs to the power of her mind, she is amazed to see the heroes resist. A ritual, completed by the Head Librarian before the assault, has protected the heroes from the majority of her power. However, with the strength of this assault, the protection of the ritual has been expended.
This last stage has Elspeth (our now-named Succubus) fighting like a cornered beast, lashing out with her whip to great effect. Pulling enemies in close to seduce them (with an Aura 1 or 2 that gives -2 to Will), causing them to attack their allies, fliting around the room. I expect this phase will be fairly short lived, but with lots of friendly fire and a satisfaction watching Elspeth fall that will not be soon forgotten.

I like it. Though the PCs might get bruised up here, I think the beatdown will be swift and fierce, and quite enjoyable for the players. It also sets up the bigger plot that's going on pretty well.

What happens after she "dies?" Will they capture her, or does she simply fade back to her displeased Mistress in Hell? Well, that's a good question. I hope I find out in the future.

Leaving it open-ended! Nice. I bet they off her (if they're gunning for her now), but I could see her becoming a forced ally, if they have a mutual enemy (Asmodeus' daughter).

I really want to thank everyone for the help this far. In the last 12 hours, I've started feeling much much better about where I stand on this Boss fight. I'm going to start drafting up some stat blocks for her different stages, but feel free to comment/critique on what I have so far!

Trit

No problem! It's very cool to see what you're doing. My players are going to have a "boss fight" with a young white dragon next session, so it's very insightful and helpful to see this kind of thing worked out. Thanks for starting this thread

 

[Manbearcat]

I personally prefer a skill challenge because of its tendency to lead to finality in resolution - when I ran Heathen, for instance, I combined the ideas for skill use in it with the "reduce hp via social skills" approach in Cairn of the Frost King to adjudicate the PCs talking down the renegade paladin as a challenge even while they dealt with the other enemies.

The Heathen module says that, if the PCs manage to talk him down, then the paladin kills himself by ripping off his evil amulet. But in my game, when we got to this stage then the paladin PC used an interrupt to prvent this, staunching the flow of life-force as he ripped off the amulet. So he survived.

I think this sort of non-railroading makes for a better play experience. So I'm a bit wary of what you say here, that the Duke can't escape. That runs the risk of being blocking for the players. If you're worried that rescuing the Duke would make the minions give up the fight, all you have to do is have the succubus change shape to copy the Duke, and then bluff the minions into keeping going. (The PCs might then knock them out rather than kill them.)

I agree on all points here and the inclusion of the social skill challenge mentioned upthread.

My thought on this is that you don't want the PCs to first kill them all (ignoring the portals) then shut down the portals (a bit tedious oustide the combat context). So you somehow need to incentivise the shutting down during the combat - linking it to the lurking succubus seems like a way to try and to this.

Also, in my experience these "close the gate" challenges during a combat are very punishing on PC action economy. So to shut down 3 out of 4 portals I would probably run it as no more than a Comp 2 challenge, with every 2 successes closing one of the portals, and this somehow progressively weakening/delurking the succubus.

Agree here as well. When synthesizing a proper Skill Challenge with combat (such as the closing the portal Skill Challenge mentioned here), considerations for balancing out the Skill Challenge action economy with the players' deployable resources within the combat action economy is absolutely paramount. You want them to engage the challenge so, as mentioned, if the SC AE is too punitive with respect to the C AE, the players will (rightfully so) ignore engaging the Skill Challenge. If you make the Skill Challenge an absolute must to defeat the encounter (and the AE balance is terribly askew), you risk a poorly paced, dynamic-empty, anti-climax.

To that end, I typically find Move Actions as the primary actions for a combat-synthesized SC to be the way to go. What's more (as I do with most things), the action economy needs to be overt, explicit. Don't make the players guess the SC AE. Give it to them. If they have to guess then your dynamic, fast-paced, action-packed, climactic combat becomes an exercise in rules-canvassing mid-stream...and then players considering the SC AE to their own C AE afterward. No good.

I'm no expert on the number of minions, but my party of four can handle them really easily, so I could see it being higher. But they might be better at it than normal, according to @Manbearcat , I think.

Your group is a minion-stomping machine due to the preponderance of controllers and secondary, auto-hit riders. I don't know about @Trit One-Ear 's group makeup and I'm also uncertain what tier of play this is. There is a Balor (which would typically default to low/mid tier Epic) but a succubus (which would typically default to low tier Paragon) as well. One thing I know for certain with respect to minions. As the game progresses, an n + 4 (or 5) encounter (which I presume its in this neighborhood if its BBEG) with a horde of minions and a powerful, Epic Tier Leader (force-multiplying them with a passive aura or an active minor) becomes considerably more difficult for a Striker/single target-heavy group without auto-hit riders. Your group setup would have such an encounter play to its sweet spot. Trit's, if its Striker-heavy, may be in trouble if he has a big force-multiplying effect. If he is Striker-heavy and wants a lot of minions, I would advise going with an Elite Swarm and breaking it out into component Standard parts once the bloodied condition has been met (each bloodied and with same XP value as the Elite Swarm).