Designing Boss Fight - Succubus (Help Appreciated)

[Storminator]

The most effective integration of a portal shutdown style of combat I ever ran was in Mutants and Masterminds. The players were in the Atlantis throne room, fighting a 3 way fight with 2 factions of Atlantis and the Nazis, while a kraken sat in the middle of the room. The kraken made some random attacks each round. Every round that everyone ignored the kraken it's attacks got worse, then a single attack "reset" it.

You could do something like that with your portals. If no one tries to shut a portal it spews minions. You have 3 portals and a fight, so your players will be spread too thin to attack each portal every turn, each turn a portal is ignored, the number of minions it spews can increase. The key to making this work, like Manbearcat said, is to let your players know the game at the start, that way they can choose how to attack the whole problem.

PS

 

[Trit One-Ear]

I think this sort of non-railroading makes for a better play experience. So I'm a bit wary of what you say here, that the Duke can't escape. That runs the risk of being blocking for the players. If you're worried that rescuing the Duke would make the minions give up the fight, all you have to do is have the succubus change shape to copy the Duke, and then bluff the minions into keeping going. (The PCs might then knock them out rather than kill them.)

This is a very good point, and something I'm trying to be better about in my games (one player in particular has said before he often feels like his options are a little limited to where I expect the story to go. Even hearing that once is enough for me to look at my running style critically).

So then I suppose I'll design an low-complexity skill encounter to take place -before- the Boss fight, not required in any way, but as an option if the players attempt this route. I still feel like I want to make it difficult to succeed, not for game balance but because it feels like it should be hard to out-talk a Succubus' ability to control someone.
As far as failure goes, the obvious consequence is they don't free the Duke from her clutches. As for success... I feel like a success by degrees system might be helpful. Maybe they all get once "chance" to speak their mind before the Succubus grows tired of playing with them and attacks. Depending on how many of the succeed, the Duke could be freed, conflicted, or just confused (all with different results on how he impacts the combat to follow).

This is very much a loose idea of how to put your advice into action. Any other insight would be great.
[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] - Don't really follow the idea you're putting forth sadly. I agree with your assessment of a regular Dominate power being a drag. Are you saying dominating one player, but having that linked to something (an item, and action etc) that players can then disrupt to free their ally is a better alternative?

My idea is currently looking at various Enchantment powers from the Wizard (Hypnotism, Charm of Misplaced Wrath etc) which instead of eating up player actions simply make them take free actions to attack their friends when hit by the power. Doing that once or twice a round (and only for the intentionally messy Stage 3) keeps the idea that your friends can be your biggest threats, while not denying the players time to actually... play.
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] - (and all others interested), my group hasn't had a lot of trouble with minions in the past, though they're hardly optimized for it.

Group breakdown (all Lvl 8, about to hit 9 after this fight).
Sword and board Paladin
Monk
Twin-Shot Ranger (not optimized, but loves the at-will)
Control-heavy Wizard
Halberd-wielding Cleric

I like using move actions to close the portals. I did a "complete the ritual before being overrun by minions" encounter not long ago, and the Wizard complained he felt he could only make Arcana checks to be the most helpful. ...Which was true. This will help prevent a similar experience.

I'll post my new thoughts on the breakdown of Stage 2 below.

Trit

 

[Trit One-Ear]

Stage 2 Update:

Four portals open, each spawning 3 minions a turn (12 minions total). The squares before each portal (blast 3 or maybe just the first 6 squares) are affected by the portal's presence (difficult terrain, damaging terrain, reduced healing power, lowered defenses etc, vulnerability etc).

Each portal will continue to spawn 3 minions a turn (with possibly more arriving if the heroes are cake-walking through this stage), until closed. Upon closing, the affected terrain will also return to normal. In order to close a portal, 3 successes are needed. These can be earned through various Skill Checks (Arcana, Religion being the obvious ones), by attacking the Succubus as she comes out of a portal, spending healing surges to "use your life energy" to stop the flow of devils etc.
If at any time a portal has no minions in the "real world", it counts as one success against that portal.

Meanwhile the Succubus will be popping in and out of different portals, attacking the heroes as she's able. Maybe she uses a different attack based on which portal she's come out of. Closing a portal would then not only remove her access to one section of the map, but also reduce her combat options.

Trit

 

[Kinak]

I'm personally not a huge fan of using move/minor/swift/whatever actions for stuff like this. It might make me a terrible person, but I like using standard actions so the players have to actually choose what they're doing and divide stuff up.

If I'm tempted to make something move action based, I usually make it movement based instead. Like, if there were a brazier at each end of the portals that you can knock over with a free action... if you're moving through their square. Sufficient damage or knocking them prone with an attack could also work. And knocking over both of a portal's braziers closes the portal.

There are two sides of that. One is, as 3e/PF have taught us, encouraging people to burn their movement on non-movement effects makes for static fights. You can break people out of that with terrain and auras and so forth, but it's easier to avoid encouraging in the first place.

The other is that you've got this room flooding with minions, necrotic energy, hellfire, pools of acid, and difficult terrain. The more people move around, the more those will come into play and the more chances the players'll have to do sweet stuff.

If at any time a portal has no minions in the "real world", it counts as one success against that portal.

This is solid gold in a skill challenge.

I'd consider letting them close it with one action if they've cleared out the minions from that portal. Or just let the minions get in the way if you're going for a movement-based solution.

Meanwhile the Succubus will be popping in and out of different portals, attacking the heroes as she's able. Maybe she uses a different attack based on which portal she's come out of. Closing a portal would then not only remove her access to one section of the map, but also reduce her combat options.

Might end up being too complicated while you're running it, but if you can keep track of everything during that phase, it's a really cool idea.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Trit One-Ear]

Mock up of Stage 1 for the Succubus:

Still disguised as Kierra Prudet, she's mostly relying on the magical items she's acquired which give her magical abilities. Tried to make her function very like a normal controller, as the players will also have a variety of mooks (and possibly the Duke) to deal with as well.


Going to add an ability:

Loyal Consorts (charm): Recharge 4 5 6
Trigger: A melee or a ranged attack targets the succubus while it is adjacent to an ally.

Effect (Immediate Interrupt): Effect (Immediate Interrupt): The triggering attack instead targets the ally instead. The creature making the triggering attack can choose for this attack to deal half damage.

 

[sabrinathecat]

Remove the qualifier about choosing half-damage if the attack is going to an ally. Their attack is intended to injure or kill. If they want non-lethal damage, they have to declare it before the dice are rolled. I love "meat Shield" type defenses. My players hate them.
I would also have some other devils show up--not just minions, but maybe a full lvl+1 or +2 encounter worth of devils. Succubus is a creature that seduces and makes deals with other devils. Maybe it can call on an old friend or two to deal with the players (in exchange for a portion of the PC's loot--maybe the bard's lute?). Likewise, her devoted servants, as you have noted, would be willing to die to protect her. They'd also be willing to kill for her. Give them reach weapons. The players and PCs may know that these people are charmed and acting against their best interests, but that doesn't mean those people won't be out to kill the PCs, and be a solid threat. If the PCs want to avoid hurting them, the Succubus has cover from her allies.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6678017]Trit One-Ear[/MENTION] Your dominate solution addresses half the issue: player boredom. The other half is player engagement. By making a Succubus' domination more like a medusa's staged petrification in 4e (e.g. slowed/immobilized/petrified), you provide buildup and anticipation within the fight. Note I only suggest this because boss fights are drawn out long enough to make it work. The last thing I would suggest if you use this model of dominate, is to have tangible ways for PCs to counteract the impending domination...perhaps saving throws are useless or become useless at a certain stage/recharge condition, and the PCs must take one of several actions to break the Succubus' hold over their ally. Regardless of the skill check/power use/RP/puzzle used, I would make opposing the Succubus' hold on another a standard action. This creates a dilemma: Do I spend attack the Succubus or free my friend? That's the sort of rules evoking narrative that 4e excels at.

 

[MoutonRustique]

To pile on to [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION], giving players the option to completetly "negate" a very bad condition is a great thing. A simple, but effective way of doing this is by free information and delayed consequences. Player John is going to be dominated at the start of his following turn (not next turn) since it is important to grant the PCs the chance to act, and not really on initiative order kismet.

I say "negate" because, since it cost them an action, it did cost them something; plus, since you've built the encounter knowing about this, you've alocated the "lost" power that would have granted to other options.

This is NOT the case of giving a monster an encounter defining power and having the whole thing fall appart when you roll : 3,2,2,1,4 on the attack rolls... (as may or may not have happened to me.)

 

[Quickleaf]

Yeah, [MENTION=22362]MoutonRustique[/MENTION] got what I was trying to articulate. Here's a concrete example of how you might design the succubus' dominate power:

DOMINATE
Close burst 10; one enemy within range; +11 vs Will (if the succubus kisses the target the attack automatically hits, if the succubus has good leverage over the target as judged by the DM she gains combat advantage);
Hit: Until the start of their next turn the target cannot attack the succubus or include her in damaging attacks, and at the start of the target's next turn they are dominated (save ends, becomes permanent on 3rd failed save). Another character within earshot and line of sight of the victim can spend a standard action to attempt to bring them back to their senses before the domination happens (this may require a skill check DC 20, specific role-play, or power use at the DM's discretion), negating the potenial domination.
Special: The succubus may only have one dominated victim at a time. If she willingly releases a dominated victim or they make their save, the victim loses 1 healing surge (or 1/4 of their HP if they have no surges); if this kills the victim their soul is dragged to Hell and they may not be resurrected by the Raise Dead ritual.

 

[Trit One-Ear]

Not to disregard the great ideas [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1268]mo[/MENTION]ustonRustique are coming up with, but I don't think I'm going to use them in this encounter. I've been playing with ways to make my players consider their options more than "which enemy do I attack," and this is perfect for that. I definitely will come up with ways to use this "bad thing X is coming, unless you do something" technique in the future.

Currently wrapping up Stages 1 and 2. Decided to move the Cambion guards into Stage 1, and keep 2 to be simply portals and minions (with Lurker appearances by our favorite Succubus.)
My current concern is that 4-5 low-HP mooks on top of the Succubus and her charmed Duke companion will be too much for the heroes (especially knowing they have 2 full stages left after this).
I'm currently looking to give the mooks a slightly large pool of HP than the 115 the Succubus gets each stage. 35 is a little low for a level 8 monster, but if the heroes manage to do 175 damage to the mooks, the Stage ends. This means that while they can just bunker down and blast through the guards to "win," it's still more effective to get to the Succubus herself.
Any thoughts on this element?

Meanwhile in Stage 2, I've created/reskinned/found four little devils to come out of four different portals. Some they've fought before (Burning Devils who explode on death), while others are new.
Stygian Skulkers - deal cold damage. When killed in melee they inflict -2 to attack rolls on whoever dealt the killing blow.
Legion Devil Grunts - Classic Devil minions, higher defenses around each other.
Bats of Malbolge - Reskin of many bat monsters. Fly by attacks, mostly used to disrupt any "hold the line" methods the players try to use.

3 of each spawn a turn from their own portals. While a portal is open it also covers a large section of the floor, causing different effects.
Fire - Deals 5 fire damage to anyone starting their turn there.
Ice - All squares are difficult terrain
Noxious Gasses - Healing surge value is reduced while in the zone (by 5? Too much/little?)
Burning Sands - Creatures have reduced Fort and Ref in this zone (-2).

As I have it set now, it's very difficult not to be in one of these zones during this stage. Aside from the Fire and Burning Sands, I feel most of them are only occasionally problematic.

My big fear is after all this design, I've created a situation too dire for my players. I have never really come close to killing any of them (very few occasions have ended with one player unconscious), but I'd hate to test that fully this time around. Still, it should be nerve-wracking. Anyone got a good sense of where I am on that spectrum?

Thanks for letting me organize some thoughts in these posts!

Trit