Sexism in Table-Top Gaming: My Thoughts On It, and What We Can Do About It

[Celebrim]

How?

Because you continue to sterotype and project yourself on to every situation.

Again and again on message boards and in media I hear of women gamers talked down to for expressing disagreement with chainmail bikinis

Ok, I'm not going to talk down to you for expressing disagreement with chainmail bikinis. I don't like chainmail bikinis. No character in my game would ever wear one. Heck, I removed 'chain shirt' and 'breastplate' from my 3.X inspired armor list as unrealistic given the assumptions of 3.X (no hit locations). And I also happen to find the general portrayal of women in fantasy media demeaning. BUT.... that's just my personal feelings. I can't claim to represent anyone. In fact, there are many women that find the overt sexuality of fantasy heroines empowering, as a source of sexual and physical confidence for providing an alternative standard of sexual attractiveness for them to adhere to that they can more easily obtain than the typical cheerleader or supermodel standard. There are gamer grrls that envision their fantasy heroines dressed in overtly sexual ways. Not every women is going to think that Red Sonya is demeaning. And if you are as conversant in feminist literature as you seem to be, you should know that it is a major controversy even within feminism as to whether embracing ones sexuality (or even promiscuity) and displaying oneself as a sexual object is empowering or demeaning.

Have you ever LARPed with women? In my experience, the sexual excitement and possibilities of LARPing are a bigger attraction on the whole to female gamers than male gamers. And I can remember going into a book store in the 90's and there were these two goth girls sitting on the floor with 'L.A. by Night' for VtM open in their laps and talking, and the are discussing the characters in the book, and one of them says something like, "Isn't he so dreamy? Every time I'm an elevator now I fantasize that he's resting on the elevator above me."

So no, whether you are a woman or not (and I'm still not certain, because your profile says male), you don't get to speak for women. You aren't their appointed champion. You don't get to go around like a knight in shining armor defending them from the assaults of predatory males. Because there isn't one single way of looking at any of this, and not even among women, and you know - maybe they don't necessarily need your protection.

saw lackadaisical attitude towards sexual assault which can trigger flashbacks in sufferers (of which there are many)

Isn't this an individual group issue though? I mean, even if sexual assault were to occur in my game, I would never be graphic about such a sensitive subject - not just because I'm worried that someone in the group has been sexual assaulted - but because dwelling on graphic anything can be prurient and voyeuristic and unhealthy. But I don't get to tell another group where to draw that line, because there is a point where I think dealing with mature issues is something important for a game to do and one of those very important issues is the very real problem of evil. And sometimes evil has to be portrayed, and how to do that correctly isn't a clear cut thing. And I'm not going to banish that from my game, because that itself would tend to make the fantasy exercise unhealthy. I disagree with claims that we aren't desensitized to murder. There are so many assumptions being made in this larger argument that I just think are flat out wrong.

and cosplayers repeatedly sexually harassed and groped at gaming conventions.

Nothing justifies that. I'm not ever going to try to excuse that. But this isn't a simple subject. I had friend go to DragonCon, and a cosplay vampire (a girl) had made one of those real denture pieces that features very real and sharp fangs, come over to him sexually grope him and then sink her very real fangs into his neck: a complete stranger completely without provocation. And she drew blood; a he did hit her, because well, assault and battery. I mean, I don't know how readily you're going to accept this claim, but there is a lot of sexuality assumed around the cosplay culture and some women - certainly not all of them - are very much attracted to it by its sexuality and very much desire to be the center of attention because of it. Some of that attention goes way beyond what they want, I'm sure, and again there is no excuse for that. But when you get into these complicated whose flirting with who situations, sometimes the boundaries between what is sexual harassment and what is welcome flirtation get really blurred. Now, I don't think that even needs to be part of a discussion of rape, but if you are going to start blurring the lines between 'rape bad' and 'this guy with pimples at dragon con was hitting on me badly', there we are. You went there already.

If I were being Puritannical I'd be advocating for no mention of sex, period, and shaming the women for "tempting" men.

It sure kinda sounds that way from here.

But it's not about individual home games. If you feel that you and your group can handle sexual assault without problems, I'm not stopping you. But given the huge amount of people who suffer from it and can't handle its portrayal in fiction without getting triggered, gamers included, I say that it's best to err on the side of caution and to not use it unless you're REALLY, REALLY SURE that nobody at your table will be affected.

- emphasis added

Make up your mind. Is it about home games or not? Or is it about your desire to dictate to the gaming community what they should or should not publish based on your standards of what is moral or not?

Okay, if my links do not help my argument and are counter to what I said, then I'll concede the mistake. But first I need to specifically know their factual fallacies, what they are and where.

Would you like to go through them one at a time? Let's start with the Scythians. The actual essay you link to says: "There is ambiguous evidence as to the role of women among the Scythians." There is very little hard evidence for Scythian women warriors beyond the usual role of aristocratic women leading men into battle in their spouses place, or of defending their homes, lives, and children in the last extremity - the real truth of 'women have always fought'. To the extent that the evidence paints a picture of female warriors, we are talking a small minority, in one culture, during one period, using the horsebow - the one weapon of the ancient world that might equalize the genders somewhat in the way that say a rifle does - and that culture ultimately went extinct, conquered and assimilated by a culture without a female warrior tradition. Not exactly evidence of equality of the sexes if you are basing equality of the sexes or any other person on what they are capable of (because if it was that, then mentally retarded people would be subhuman), and certainly not definitive evidence that female warriors are realistic much less commonplace.

And that's your strongest link. You link repeatedly to the 'Women as Warriors Homepage', which is just filled with crap and garbage. Would you like me to explain?

 

[mythago]

Celebrim, for someone who doesn't think anyone should "speak for women", you yourself are doing a lot of speaking about how women gamers supposedly act and what they want and what their motivations are.

Do all female gamers want the exact same thing? Of course not, any more than all male gamers do. I'm not sure why that is supposed to block off a discussion about sexism in gaming generally, or to observe that, as a group, female gamers most likely do not want to be treated as exotic curiosities who are orthogonal to the 'real' gaming community. As Elf Witch says, things used to be much worse - I remember going to gaming cons and being treated like a talking zoo animal, frankly, which doesn't happen anymore - but we are not exactly at a point where, if my daughter came home from a gaming con annoyed that some guy challenged her geek cred, I would be utterly taken aback.

And it's frankly tiresome to see the same old non-arguments thrown up as chaff to distract from the meat of the discussion: if you don't like it don't hang with the jerks, women aren't fragile, free speech eleventy!!!!111, it's only a handful of people, let's not say bad things about the hobby. None of these things have to do with real issues about whether the gaming community has a problematic strain of sexism or whether we should discuss problems that do in fact exist, and trying to shut down that discussion is, well, trying to shut down discussion.

 

[mythago]

Speaking purely to the broader issue of players having limitations on what kind of character they can have, this isn't something that's universally condemnatory (or at least I don't believe it is). In terms of world-building, what isn't allowed can be just as important as what is, and it's entirely possible to have characters that - whether by game mechanics or role-playing - are disruptive because they go beyond the boundaries set by the GM or the source material.

Indeed so. The interesting question is why the GM or the source material chooses to set those particular boundaries, and whether it is in fact the case that those limitations are followed. If they're followed arbitrarily then the players are quite justified in asking whether "we have to do it this way" is in fact true.

For example, imagine that your GM, after telling everyone the game was going to be Gothic Horror, had slapstick comedy and jokey NPCs popping up regularly throughout the session. You might well have frowned at the guys playing luchadores, but then I think you'd probably also be asking why the GM wasn't bothering to stick to the Gothic Horror tone that was supposedly the theme of the campaign. Especially if the GM had banned luchadores and said no, you all have to make characters that fit the Gothic Horror milieu.

 

[Argyle King]

In general, I'm pro-luchadore.


On the topic of women in gaming...

I never know what to say. Apparently, I live in some weird alternate dimension where the people I game with aren't d-bags as a general rule. Perhaps things were different back in the day. Perhaps things are different elsewhere. All I can say is that I tend to treat women gamers as gamers, and the people I game with tend to do the same.

There aren't a lot of things which are off limits when it comes to my usual group. There have been games in which some rather serious topics (such as rape) have come up during a game. That in no way implies that I or anyone in my group condones the activity; neither does it imply it's something which runs rampant during our gaming. The times when it did occur, it was handled in what I believe to be mature way. It's also worth pointing out that it hasn't been something unique to female characters; I particularly remember a male wizard character suffering a shudder worthy fate at the hands of a despicable villain. It's rare when it does happen in games I've been involved in, but, when it has happened, I feel it added to the scene or the story, and it wasn't something the group jokingly or casually tossed about.

That being said, I do recognize that different topics may hit closer to home for some gamers based on the demographics they come from. With a female player, I might discuss OOG how they felt about certain things, but I'd also do that with the other members of my group. A close friend of mine lost a child a few years back; as such, there were some aspects of the story I had written at the time which I changed out of regard for his feelings. I take time to know the people I game with. Just a few days ago, I made some new acquaintances simply by talking to someone else at the local game store.

I always find it odd that roleplaying games are social in nature, but there seems to be some strange aversion to being social among groups; between GM and player. I've found that taking the time to talk to the people I game with solves a lot of problems. Likewise, I've found that it's surprisingly easy to bring new players into the hobby simply by talking to people and doing so without being a jerk, bigot, or [some words I can't say on a public forum.] I understand that not everyone has a great charisma score, but you'd be amazed at how many negative aspects of the tabletop hobby can be fixed by simply being social.

I really don't know what else to say. I always have difficulty weighing in when it comes to a topic of this nature. I have that difficulty because I can't relate to it. I'm not denying that sexism happens. I'm sure it does, and it doesn't entirely surprise me that some members of the tabletop community act different toward girls; I recognize that some heads turn when someone of the female gender walks into the local game store. I myself will admit to enjoying eye candy when it's available. However, overall, I just really don't understand the mentality behind some of the stories I read online or hear from elsewhere. I always ask myself, "why would I still game with people who acted like that?" The answer I often come to is that I wouldn't. At a Con or something, I understand you cannot always choose who you play with.

....nevermind. I'm starting to ramble now, and I don't feel as though I'm adding anything. So, in closing, I support luchadore gamers.

 

[Kursk]

On the topic of women in gaming...

I never know what to say. Apparently, I live in some weird alternate dimension where the people I game with aren't d-bags as a general rule. Perhaps things were different back in the day. Perhaps things are different elsewhere.

Same here. And no, it wasn't "different back in the day". After gaming for almost 40 years I haven't run into these problems. Probably comes down to the class of people you game with.

p.s. There was one incident at my table about 20 years ago. We had a new player that was female. She got annoyed when I stood when she entered the room and came to sit at the table. She thought it was sexist. In her eyes I'm sure that she was correct. I had to explain about different levels of upbringing and what not. All was well until I opened a door for her. Had to smooth that one out too.

 

[mythago]

Same here. And no, it wasn't "different back in the day". After gaming for almost 40 years I haven't run into these problems. Probably comes down to the class of people you game with.

Kursk, I appreciate that your heart and your actions are in the right place, but I would urge you to consider that poor treatment of women in gaming culture may exist even if you personally haven't experienced it, and that if you're a man (as your post suggests) that you are less likely to have been on the receiving end.

I mean, two women have posted in this thread about how it was, in fact a lot worse "back in the day" and how sexism in gaming still exists. The mods have to keep a tight rein on this thread precisely because of how often the topic gets very heated. That really wouldn't be the case if the scope of the problem was limited to the occasional angry 15-year-old who couldn't handle being turned down for a date by the paladin's player. It would be an odd thing indeed if gaming were the sole hobby unusually more progressive than the culture around it. (Fercryinoutloud, even the Great Gygax opined that gaming is uninteresting to women because of their ladybrains.) We can't fix a problem we don't acknowledge, and it's precisely because many people talked and thought and tried to improve gaming culture that things are much much better than they were "back in the day".

As a side note, WRT the woman who got annoyed at you, even though you meant it as simple courtesy, she may have felt as though your standing or opening doors was the equivalent of repeatedly announcing "WHOA DUDES LOOK THERE IS A GIRL IN THE ROOM" - which, if one has already had the experience of being treated like a creature from Mars by your co-hobbyists, may be something to which one is a bit sensitive. I'm also sorry to say that there are men who, unlike you, treat social courtesies such as yours not as appropriate gentlemanly behavior but as a political litmus test or a way to pull the girls' pigtails.

 

[Kursk]

Kursk, I appreciate that your heart and your actions are in the right place, but I would urge you to consider that poor treatment of women in gaming culture may exist even if you personally haven't experienced it,

Sure. But, after 40 years in countless groups, hundreds of players, scattered across the globe, statistically (see that scientific subject) it isn't wide spread.

 

[Kursk]

As a side note, WRT the woman who got annoyed at you, even though you meant it as simple courtesy, she may have felt as though your standing or opening doors was the equivalent of repeatedly announcing "WHOA DUDES LOOK THERE IS A GIRL IN THE ROOM" - which, if one has already had the experience of being treated like a creature from Mars by your co-hobbyists, may be something to which one is a bit sensitive. I'm also sorry to say that there are men who, unlike you, treat social courtesies such as yours not as appropriate gentlemanly behavior but as a political litmus test or a way to pull the girls' pigtails.

You are 100% correct. The lady in question had never before encountered a gentleman. Thus, she was taken aback by the, to her mind, alien & suspicious action. For her it was a matter of education and filling in gaps in her social upbringing.

 

[MJS]

I hold doors for people, not just women I find pretty.
I think it is good to discuss gender equality - sexism hurts men as well, perhaps just as much, as women. It sucks for everybody. At a convention last weekend, I estimate it was around 20% female gamers. So, if we want the hobby to expand, we should be looking at this.
I don't think chain mail bikinis and such are a problem. You have to look at the overall image - is she empowered, and equal to the bare-chested Conan? Boobs are great. Muscles are great. Its the overall tone I care about. The fantasy characters shouldn't be empowered because of showing skin.
The 5E playtest I was in had a father and daughter, and the daughter was an MVP as far as deducing things about the mystery at hand. The GM ignored her sometimes, though, and I made it a point to at least affirm what she said - hey, good idea, maybe we should do that...

What I didn't see was a lot of women GM's. I wonder if that is a key in getting more women players. Originally, TSR built the hobby by focusing on GM material - GM's who want to run their games are what drives the hobby IMO.

Come to think of it - wow. I've never played in a woman's game. All my GM's, since 1987, have been guys. That's not good.

 

[mythago]

Sure. But, after 40 years in countless groups, hundreds of players, scattered across the globe, statistically (see that scientific subject) it isn't wide spread.

I'm not quite sure what this means, particularly the "statistically" part, and I am a little puzzled that you cut off the last part of that sentence, which notes that if you're a man, your experience and perception of this problem may be somewhat different.

Also, the issue isn't simply about how an individual gaming group behaves. The hobby is a lot more than small clusters of people gathering in somebody's living room; that's why the debates about chainmail bikini art and attracting women to gaming and codes of conduct at gaming conventions.

Again, I appreciate that you believe this should be a nonissue, but declaring that it should be is not, sadly, enough to actually make it such.