Sexism in Table-Top Gaming: My Thoughts On It, and What We Can Do About It

[Alzrius]

The image in my mind of who wants to enforce such things, and more importantly, why (I mean, seriously, why?) is just not pleasant. That said, I've never met such a person, so it's just a mental construct of a hypothetical fictional person in my head.

I think it's important to remember that this is your personal prejudice, Morrus, rather than a legitimate critique of people who happen to like this particular thing that you do not. I say that because it's important to remember that what someone enjoys in their fiction does not - necessarily - confer anything about their thoughts, feelings, or attitudes towards real people.

I've had players who chose to play characters that would murder shopkeepers in the game world who didn't give them a discount on their gear. That didn't mean that I was at all concerned about how they'd act when they went to the store on a snack run. Similarly, finding merit in the idea of ability score caps that are sex-dependent is not some sort of surefire indicator about how a person feels toward women.

 

[Elf Witch]

You need to work on this argument. 1e has strength caps for men an women. The game is based around 15th century Europe so using modern people with advanced training methods, superior nutrition, access to steroids an HGH, and many other modern advantages to prove it as unrealistic doesn't hold water. 3e has no such limits and what house rules people put in their own games is impossible to judge without knowing their game. Plus 1e is nearly 40 years old so you want to stick to more current example. Don't just use D&D because it is the most popular RPG.

I have seen strength caps discussed and the DM who want them for a sense of realism don't seem to get why a lot of female players resent them. I do and I will walk out of any game with them. Why should my character take a penalty just because I am playing a female. In a game with magic and being able to survive a fall from the grand canyon it seems arbitrary to pick that one area for realism.

 

[Morrus]

I think it's important to remember that this is your personal prejudice, Morrus

Hey, that's what I said!

 

[Crothian]

I have seen strength caps discussed and the DM who want them for a sense of realism don't seem to get why a lot of female players resent them. I do and I will walk out of any game with them. Why should my character take a penalty just because I am playing a female. In a game with magic and being able to survive a fall from the grand canyon it seems arbitrary to pick that one area for realism.

Your character is not taking a penalty. A cap is not a penalty and it is not like male characters do not have caps either because they do. If you don't want to play in a game that has them that is fine. I am not arguing for them. My post was about the weakness of the original argument and not about disagreeing it.

 

[Elf Witch]

I just read through this thread and I am happy to see that the majority of the thread is not one of the woman folk are complaining again they must be PMS. I started gaming back in the 70s and I saw sexism up close. Being a female in a male dominated hobby required knowing how to deal with jerks on a regular basis. So many DMs thought it was perfectly acceptable to have every other NPC try and rape a female PC. Trying to find a female mini of your character that actually had clothes was next to impossible.

Over time the hobby has matured though don't for one moment think sexism does not exist in our hobby. Look at the hoopla over at WOTC when they had Astrid's a place for female gamers to talk about issues relating to female gamers. So many male gamers where complaining that it was giving woman preferential treatment. They could not grasp the concept that this is a male dominated hobby and every other place is dominated by men. I suppose you could have a men's forum but why. And it was not like men were not allowed in to read and post. And several took great pleasure on being raging jerks about it. In the thread discussing sexism in artwork and where to go to find more female friendly fantasy artwork male posters felt the need to complain how we were ruining gaming how cheesecake was an important part of the hobby ans what right did we have to come on and expect change.

Nobody was saying ban cheesecake the discussion was mainly where can we find artwork and also how we would like to see artwork that better portrays female adventurers. Just like I am reading here people choosing to dismiss everything the OP posted because they are upset that they think she is for banning a gaming supplement. I certainly didn't get that. What I got from it was this a product that she find offensive and is pointing it out. I actually bought the product and after reading it sent it back to Amazon and wrote the company how as a female gamer I found the way the subject of rape was handled to be distasteful and because of that would not be buying anymore products. That is my right to decide where my money goes. And my right to let a business know why I will no longer do business with them.

I have no issue with people who choose to buy the product so why should there be an issue with my choosing not to buy it.

There is an issue happening at conventions female attendees are suffering sexual harassment,female cosplayers are being groped. This should not be happening and some cons are making an effort to stop it other say they are like Comiccon but in reality they are just giving the issue lip service. I know of woman harassed at gaming stores.

 

[billd91]

Your character is not taking a penalty. A cap is not a penalty and it is not like male characters do not have caps either because they do. If you don't want to play in a game that has them that is fine. I am not arguing for them. My post was about the weakness of the original argument and not about disagreeing it.

If you happen to roll above the cap (as a 1st edition female character could) then how is it not a penalty? It would require the player to subtract an amount to get to the cap. That it isn't a penalty across the entire span of possible results doesn't necessarily prevent it from being a penalty in some instances.

But ultimately, whether it's technically a penalty or not by your definition, it's still an area in which the mechanics prevent a female character from achieving the potential results of a male character that appears to have had a negative effect on actual players and their satisfaction with the game. Defining whether it's technically a lower cap or a penalty seems like picking nits in an unnecessary way.

 

[Elf Witch]

Your character is not taking a penalty. A cap is not a penalty and it is not like male characters do not have caps either because they do. If you don't want to play in a game that has them that is fine. I am not arguing for them. My post was about the weakness of the original argument and not about disagreeing it.

Bull my character certainly is taking a penalty in the fact hat she will never be as good as male character of the same class. If I can only go as high as a 16 and male characters can go as high as 22 that is a +3 difference in a stat for a male character. And usually when they put these caps in they don't give you something else on racial stats there is sully a + to balance out the -.

 

[Umbran]

Your character is not taking a penalty. A cap is not a penalty...

Okay, if you want to enter into semantics - a cap is not technically a penalty, in game rules terms. But it is limitation on what kind of character you can have. That's the functional issue, and not something we should forget. It is saying, "You cannot have the type of female character you want, just 'cause it is female."

 

[Crothian]

Bull my character certainly is taking a penalty in the fact hat she will never be as good as male character of the same class. If I can only go as high as a 16 and male characters can go as high as 22 that is a +3 difference in a stat for a male character. And usually when they put these caps in they don't give you something else on racial stats there is sully a + to balance out the -.

What game are you talking about? The bonuses look like 3e but 3e does not have any ability caps for anyone. If you are complaining about someone's house rules then complain to them I have no control on anyone's house rules except my own and I have never used any house rules like these.

 

[Crothian]

Okay, if you want to enter into semantics - a cop is not technically a penalty. But it is limitation on what kind of character you can have. Let us not lose that, shall we.

You are right, penalty or cap it doesn't matter what we call it. My bad on that one. I am not in support of gender based attribute caps just in case it looks like I am.

Under the rules of 1e D&D female humans are limited to an 18/50 and Male humans are limited to an 18/00. There is no character class in the PHB that a female human can not be and does not limit the kinds of characters they can be. There are reasons to not have this rule in the book but I don't think saying it limits the kinds of female human character that can be played is one of them.